turboplanner Posted January 4, 2012 Author Posted January 4, 2012 Type A personalities are Type A personalities David, age makes no difference. I can recall a 73 year old jumping at the chance of riding a Sidecar outfit at a race meeting, and coming within a second of the lap record. As far as explanations are concerned, you only have to watch RBT or Highway Patrol to hear the masterpieces of fiction from totally healthy and medically fit culprits to destroy any concept of honesty in the wider community.
facthunter Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Does the "bad" apple analogy really apply to the situation?. It means the other apples "rot" because of the bad apple being in with them. Maybe if we has gotten rid of a few bad apples earlier we wouldn't have so many now?. Just a question.. For some time now I have witnessed many"silly" things done and wonder where it might end. NOT just RAA either............What is an acceptable standard? We WILL all be lumped into the same bin David. The public (lead by the media) always react that way. There is only 10,000 of us and many are not active and many are apathetic so we are a definate minority who don't have much say. If we were not around few would grieve. I don't think it would come to that. It doesn't have to be official banning. It can just become too much trouble with all the paperwork, rules , and the perception, etc. and some go and do something else . Most pilots who do silly things have a history of behaving like that. People around them know what they are like. With most of them it is just a matter of time before they come unstuck. Nev 1
Guest pookemon Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 From the photos, the rego looks like 10-312. A post above suggested it was 10-302. A quick check of the RAAus Register does not show 10-312 exists. The register however, has not been updated since 31st Jan 2011. This is another area that could be kept up to date. It can't be too difficuilt to have the Register "live". Yep - another example of the great system that is RAA registration - if you search the current registered aircraft it comes up as 10-0302. So according to the rules it could have 10-302, 10-0302 or just 302 printed on the tail and wing...
turboplanner Posted January 4, 2012 Author Posted January 4, 2012 Don't let it get you down Facthunter. The vast majority refresh their theory at regular intervals, have their flying checked and leave low flying to Ag pilots because they are intelligent enough to understand the risks without needing to be incented by regulations. That's why flying (RA and GA) is still a relatively safe pastime in Australia, but it could be a lot safer. All of us need to think of ourselves as auditors protecting our freedoms and weed out the bad behaviour, rather than act as spectators 2
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Type A personalities are Type A personalities David, age makes no difference. I can recall a 73 year old jumping at the chance of riding a Sidecar outfit at a race meeting, and coming within a second of the lap record.As far as explanations are concerned, you only have to watch RBT or Highway Patrol to hear the masterpieces of fiction from totally healthy and medically fit culprits to destroy any concept of honesty in the wider community. I absolutely agree that one possible, potentially even probable explaination is that the guy was flying low simply because its hard to fly visually when your head is inserted up your own ar$e. However its not the only potential explaination. If it turns out that it is the cause then the real benefit here is that this specific accident seems to be self limiting, limited to a single possible occurence! Andy BTW, appologies in misquoting you in the last post I made, you are right your inference was that unless casa are involved we are unlikely to hear more. The articles that others linked to yesterday stated that Casa would lead the investigation so hopefully we will hear more......eventually....maybe
turboplanner Posted January 4, 2012 Author Posted January 4, 2012 What would be a better outcome is for the RAA board members to realise they are missing out on a golden opportunity to educate members each time there is an incident, and to seek Government direction in each State and Territory for Police to be instructed to hand over a copy of each investigation to RAA. 2
Gnarly Gnu Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Well how about that - 60 is the new 20! Crazy kids.....
farri Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 I believe we need to continue to send the message, loud and clear, that as RAA pilots , we don`t want or deserve to be penalised for the actions of any individual. I also believe it does no good to continually state that we are all going to have to pay the price ( so to speak ), for the actions of any individual.... To me, that is sending the message that we expect it and are prepaird to accept it! I have never, nor would I ever want, for anyone in the RAA, or anywhere else, to be juged or penalised, because of something I choose to do! I`m very much aware of the political pressure and the general publics perceptions!... I started flying before the " Horscots Report ". For those who don`t know what the Horsecots Report was.......Put basiclly,it was a report given to Parliament,recommending changes to the regulations governing Ultralight aircraft, due to the number of accidents and fatalities that were occuring. Frank. 1
facthunter Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 They always said, "there is no fool like and OLD fool", but I thought that was to do with sex and marriage. ( Two different things only loosely related). Anyhow, what am I saying?..... 60 isn't old It was once, but now it's only middle aged. Later it becomes "muddle" aged. ( but that's also the NZ pronunciation for middle).. Nev
ave8rr Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 What would be a better outcome is for the RAA board members to realise they are missing out on a golden opportunity to educate members each time there is an incident, and to seek Government direction in each State and Territory for Police to be instructed to hand over a copy of each investigation to RAA. Couldn't agree more Turbo. I have been pushing this one for along time. It was good to see that ATSB got involoved in the Old Bar indicent and look at the discussion that has created in these forums.
Guest davidh10 Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Does the "bad" apple analogy really apply to the situation?. It means the other apples "rot" because of the bad apple being in with them. Maybe if we has gotten rid of a few bad apples earlier we wouldn't have so many now?. Just a question..For some time now I have witnessed many"silly" things done and wonder where it might end. I think it does apply. Human kind occupies a range on the scale of behaviour. As others have suggested, probably nobody at the 100% correct end, but generally we would like to think the weighting is toward the top end. Those who occupy the bottom end of the range could also be regarded as temporary citizens, since the odds would have them live a much shorter life than otherwise would be the case. Just as temptation affects people in different ways, those who may normally behave correctly could be tempted if they are exposed to others whose regard for the rules is absent. This could particularly be the case where the errant behaviour is appealing or encouraged. One has to wonder if the escalating stupid behaviour that we see on reality shows and public video publishing sites isn't escalating simply because it is exposed in public. There's always copy-cat pretenders in the offing, it seems. On that point, what would anyone here have done if they saw a person taking their aircraft out and had a reasonable idea that s/he was going to do something that could endanger others? Would anyone have tried to prevent it?
turboplanner Posted January 5, 2012 Author Posted January 5, 2012 Very Interesting Question David, I've done it on a few hundred occasions, sometimes being subjected to a very robust defence by the perpetrator, but more so his mates, but that would be less that 5%. The other 95%, surprisingly, said something like "Yeah, that was stupid wasn't it" I often came across the 5% in tribunal hearings and two of those went on to make death threats to officials when they lost at the tribunal.
David Isaac Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Type A personalities are Type A personalities David, age makes no difference. I can recall a 73 year old jumping at the chance of riding a Sidecar outfit at a race meeting, and coming within a second of the lap record.As far as explanations are concerned, you only have to watch RBT or Highway Patrol to hear the masterpieces of fiction from totally healthy and medically fit culprits to destroy any concept of honesty in the wider community. Tubz, You terrify me ... I have been described as Type A ... not sure whether that is correct, I can't remember the assessment criterion or whether Type A is good or bad. Using your reasoning does it mean that I am likely to do something as stupid as the captain of the Sapphire Submarine??? I hope not!!!
facthunter Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Non of that stuff is that simple. We categorise people too often. That is a lazy response ( don't get upset, we all do it) We used to do it when we would see a chinese person. Remember the saying "all you chinese look the same to me", but they really aren't. They look just as diversified as any other group, It's just that once you have categorised someone you feel you have them "sorted" so you stop looking for any more detail. We do it with personalities, behavioural patterns, age groups, refugees, mentally ill, homosexuals etc and think once that is done, we can control/predict results/treat/reject/ understand/ ignore/ denigrate.. as if they are all the same. More work is required. They is nothing more difficult than dealing with the complexity of human personalities, and how they interact with situations.Nev 3
farri Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 I think it does apply. Human kind occupies a range on the scale of behaviour. One has to wonder if the escalating stupid behaviour that we see on reality shows and public video publishing sites isn't escalating simply because it is exposed in public. There's always copy-cat pretenders in the offing, it seems.? David, I couldn`t agree more, however, as an example!....I started riding motor bikes in my late teens. Raced dirt and grass track for a while, rode on the highway for years, but never once did it occur to me to build a ramp and do a 360 degree, backward flip, with the bike..... These days, the guys who are capable can do it easily!... They didn`t learn by just doing what the average guy does with a motor bike and taking notice of everyone who said they were just plain crazy. Another example: As a kid I loved my push bike, rode it like I was super man, but I couldn`t do anything like the young kids of today do with their BMX and mountain bikes. I must be one of the " Old Fools " because I still enjoy a challenge and my defence will be, " Your honour, I`m just an old fool, therefore I plead,not guilty"! ..... Frank. Ps, Not sugesting anyone go out and do something stupid!
turboplanner Posted January 5, 2012 Author Posted January 5, 2012 Tubz,You terrify me ... I have been described as Type A ... not sure whether that is correct, I can't remember the assessment criterion or whether Type A is good or bad. Using your reasoning does it mean that I am likely to do something as stupid as the captain of the Sapphire Submarine??? I hope not!!! We'll ignore Facthunter's good points for the moment, he's only trying to cover up what 727 crews did in Sydney. A Type A personality loves competition, will usually be unable to help himself pass slower cars, same with riding a bike, running or even walking. I actually pass other supermarket trollies in the aisles. He will often show off while doing it, and sometimes comes unstuck. He gets frustrated by slow people, whether physically or mentally Will usually arrive for appointments early or exactly on time Many Olympians are Type A. Add alcohol, drugs or highway motor bikes to this mix and you have a temporary citizen Type C are the very laid back, in no hurry on the road, will wave people past them in queues, arrive at work any time, with no excuse, don't usually meet deadlines, and regularly get into trouble for all of this, mostly from the wife......which they just brush off with a grin. Type B are in between Type C make good metropolitan bus drivers because they just plod along and never get flustered. In your case David, as age progresses, I see you cruising along inspecting the fences, then deciding to put a wheel each side of the barbed wire, knowing how accurately you can fly, but, because of encroaching age forgetting that post you didn't sink to full depth because of the rock layer......... Getting back to Facthunter's points, all are true. On top of that the Psychiatrists never seem to allow for education and managed behaviour, or individual traits. So for example, After donating a massive sum to the State of Victoria, a small donation to South Australia, and an unfair deposit in NSW where a Police Mini ran interference for another one sitting between my mirrors, and the new politicians' hobby of photography, I found if I let the cruise control deal with the people who passed me, it would cost me nothing, and it stuck....with the exception of Cunnamulla where I give it the boot. (We'll see who's paying attention). One of the things that saved me when seven mates died, was that I never drank before or during driving (so magnifying the Type A trait). 2
farri Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Turbo, I can only reply by saying, Thank you!..... You gave me a good laugh!............ Now I`ll go and try to get some work done. Frank. 1
David Isaac Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Scary, I'll admit I'm probably type A , I race around the supermarket with the trolley with Shirley telling me constantly "come back here". At 58 years of age I have even been seen accelerating the trolley down the aisle and riding the handle with my feet off the floor ... hell that is an admission at my age. I too have provided the salaries for many a State employee, not from malicious acts but because I am often oblivious to the speed I am traveling and anyhow the bloody speed zones keep changing on me. But I had always put this all down to ADHHHHHHD ... not Type A ... LOL. The only difference being there are less Hs today than 30 years ago. The scariest line of your post is the last line ... I reckon the only reason I am still alive at 58 is because I did NOT drink and drive, in fact I did not drink much at all as a young man, just a little red wine and port these days; I know this habit kept me alive, unlike a few of my mates for the same reason as yours. Being brutally honest there is a wild part in me that even at my age I have to constantly check and run the scenario through my mind to assess the level of risk I am prepared to take. The problem is I may not be as sharp in the reaction area as I was when in my 20s, I have rolled and spun cars and raced Jet Sprint Boats; this was all sober, pushing the limits. Would I take risks today ... YES ... I fly don't I? BUT, I consider the risks I take as reasonable risks these days. The problem is if I arze off the bike today, it takes longer for the bruises to heal and longer to recover from the psychological abuse of "you stupid old bugga ... what do you think you are doing ... you are not 20 anymore you know...". LOL 1
Guest davidh10 Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Frank; There's a big difference between someone who "enjoys a challenge" and someone who spontaneously does something reckless. The former assesses risk and while they may be prepared to accept significantly elevated risk and possible severe consequences for themselves, does not inflict that on unwilling or unknowing participants or bystanders. I vaguely recall a documentary on stunt people (I think it was primarily focussed on Evil Knievel). They all had good physics backgrounds (or worked with those who did) and planned their stunts in meticulous detail to, as far as possible mitigate risks to themselves and ensure minimum risk to spectators. That did not mean they expected not to be injured. Evil Knievel is reputed to have broken every bone in his body at some point in his stunt career, and he kept going back for more. While children may do silly things because they lack the ability to project possible scenarios into future consequences, adults are expected to do so. Unfortunately, not all are capable, and of course if the brain is impaired by drugs and / or alcohol it lessens the person's capability to assess, as well as to exercise self control. The pilot actions reported in the Lake Hume accident do not seem to me to be those of a person who has undertaken any planning or risk assessment. Further the reports suggest that the people in the boat had no prior knowledge of this occurrence and were in fear for their safety. Quite apart form the legal aspects, the reports do not paint a picture of someone "wanting a challenge" or performing a carefully orchestrated stunt, neither of which would be a defence.
farri Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Bugger the work, David Issac, This is much more fun !..... I love you ........and I`m not even gay or a cradle snatcher and I`m 6 years older. Frank. 1
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 ABC is reporting that:- - Pilot was unlicensed, Student license had expired - Aircraft was unregistered, registration expired. - Pilot faces a custodial sentence So.......we go from Bizarre to worse http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-05/jail-threat-for-27unlicensed27-lake-crash-pilot/3760046 Andy
farri Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Frank; There's a big difference between someone who "enjoys a challenge" and someone who spontaneously does something reckless. The former assesses risk and while they may be prepared to accept significantly elevated risk and possible severe consequences for themselves, does not inflict that on unwilling or unknowing participants or bystanders.. David, I know that and I want everyone else to know that also!..... I`m not that silly of an old fool!...... All my risks have been calculated to the best of my ability,that`s why I`m still on this planet without any major injuries other than a bad back from to much hard work in the past.....Flying is probably one of the saftest things I`ve done.... I was in the scrub, on my own, at 17 years of age,blowing tree stumps out with gelignite! My father wouldn`t let me buy a motor bike, he didn`t like them,It was only after I left home that I bought one, but gues what!....I had taught my son to ride my road bike by the time he had turned seven and he later went on to ride saftely,on the road, for many years,without ever falling off,once or causing anyone else to have an accident. I hope someone is getting my point! We should start a thread on what all of us ," Silly Old Fools ", have survived in the past. I think we`ve hijacked this thread but I`m blaming David Issac, after all,he`s responsible for controling this section of the site!....... Frank.
turboplanner Posted January 5, 2012 Author Posted January 5, 2012 Careful you two, people will start talking.
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