Preferred Navigation

[J170 Owner]

Does knowing exactly where you're not mean you're not lost?

 

 

[turboplanner]

As long as it includes the whole world with the exception of your position.

 

 

[Tomo]

and getting lost is an offence.

Yes, but what is the ratio of people getting lost to people who are temporarily uncertain of their position?

 

I've never been lost from what I understand, at one stage though I was a little unsure of my position over some ground, but from doing map to ground worked out the issue and continued on. I wouldn't call that getting lost would you?

 

 

[kaz3g]

Any combination of chart, map, compass, time piece (x4), GPS (OK I admit it), ILS, VOR, ADF, pen, thumb, forefinger and whizz wheel (CR5). Oh and not forgetting good old fashioned local knowledge! PS: Why are people who are out for a bit of recreational flying be it GA, or RAA, getting around with 2, 3 and even 4 GPS's? I just don't get it.

4 time pieces

 

GPS

 

ILS

 

VOR

 

ADF

 

= 7 aids to navigation over and above basic clock and compass.... makes two GPS and a moving map seem conservative.

 

kaz

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, but what is the ratio of people getting lost to people who are temporarily uncertain of their position?I've never been lost from what I understand, at one stage though I was a little unsure of my position over some ground, but from doing map to ground worked out the issue and continued on. I wouldn't call that getting lost would you?

Yes, you were lost, let's not mince words.

 

You are supposed to know your position at all times, ie as you pass over one landmark, you should see where the next one is.

 

You caught a lucky break - there were suitable landmarks on your map, but if they hadn't been there, and in many places in Australia they won't be, you'd have had other decisions to make - such as backtracking on your bearing, towards a river etc.

 

What happened to you I'd suggest is quite common, just that people won't own up to it, which is why 45 minutes to an hour's fuel reserve can be handy.

 

On the two occasions I became uncertain, I dropped down and read the name on a railway siding, and circled a small town to get its name on the road.

 

However the "most people seem to do that however" GPS users are stuffed if they don't have a WAC Chart, and in trouble uif they don't have the planned track on it - hard to draw on your knee.

 

 

[naremman]

Navigating in the bush has never presented too many problems for me, but I have encountered more problems around built up areas like the cities. The Western Lane of Entry through Melbourne made me more nervous than any bush flying. A 1:250000 VTC probably contains too much information.

 

I did some flying in the UK in the 70's and at times struggled. Their WAC equivalent uses 1:250000 and with villages three miles apart you went from one village to the next in under two minutes. It was easier to revert to a Motorways map and follow the bitumen!!

 

Phil Butherway recalls some funny moments when he was Deputy CFI at the China Southern Flying School at Merredin teaching the Chinese students navigation. They had difficulty initially coming to grips with finding their way around the vastness of the Wheatbelt, and Phil recounts some instances of some of his students having absolutely no idea where they were while the Grob continued thumping away in an uncertain direction at 120 Knots.

 

With most Aussie students you could get away with : "you're lost aren't cha", but to do so with a Chinese student would cause him to loose face, something to be generally avoided. Some astute origami with the WAC chart with the current position right in the middle normally restored the situation to normal!!

 

Some of Phil's former students could well be on the flights that China Southern have just commenced into Perth.

 

 

[turboplanner]

A lot depends on where you are. I remember one trip north from Melbourne with simple landmarks to begin with then hitting the wheatbelt in the Riverina where you would see a huge wheat silo in every town or rail siding, often two of them ahead, so you could almost cross NSW without a map if you could remember the order and shape of the towns, so sucked into complacency, and then closer to the border..............sh$t where did all the silos go to, and nothing to get your claws into but the highway.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

4 time piecesGPS

ILS

 

VOR

 

ADF

 

= 7 aids to navigation over and above basic clock and compass.... makes two GPS and a moving map seem conservative.

 

kaz

Love your work Kaz!

Of course these are all mandated by law, that's my excuse anyway!

 

PS: Before the pedants jump in, of course the four time pieces aren't required, but they seem to be attached to everything that moves.

 

 

[Guernsey]

It is possible to know what your position should be but having no surface reference to confirm your exact position as I have experienced several times when flying GA over the sea, only when land was sighted could I confirm if I was still on track, sooooooo was I lost?

 

Alan.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Depends whether you want to get into a hair splitting contest, or help new navigators fly safely, minimising the chance of fuel exhaustion or last light while trying to find their destination. The question you are posing has its place in more advanced navigation, and I would assume you would be taking star sightings.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Star sightings no, these were daylight VFR flights with no GPS.

 

Alan.

 

 

[turboplanner]

No land in sight? anywhere?

 

Were you aiming for England?

 

Don't forget the five navigators of Flight 19 missed the entire span of the Carribean islands

 

 

[facthunter]

Most of you are somewhat disobedient. Surely your mum has told you many times, to get lost. Nev..

 

 

[turboplanner]

I'm assuming that's what your mum did, based on the long and weaving 727 flights I remember.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Love your work Kaz!Of course these are all mandated by law, that's my excuse anyway!

 

PS: Before the pedants jump in, of course the four time pieces aren't required, but they seem to be attached to everything that moves.

Ok Howie... here's a question for someone of greater technological capacity than me (you realise a slide rule was the nearest thing to a computer anyone saw when I was your age?)

 

I have noticed on a number of occasions that my magnetic compass appeared to be intermittently reading way off my magnetic heading as evidenced by (1) my local knoweldge) and (2) my multiple GPS installations. Only intermittent, mind you, and never a problem just sitting on the ground boxing the compass.

 

My curiosity got the better of me and I sat the aircraft in close alignment with the runway (known heading) and then switched on and off each piece of electronic equipment -- radio, intercom, transponder, Garmin and RecFlying GPS's and the moving map (runs off my laptop in the back. I even turned the 7" TFT screen for the moving map on and off. Nothing...

 

I gave up and stoked the fire to do my runups. Turned everything on again and put my headset on. I leaned right forward to move the spare headset from the floor on the pax side and saw the compass deviate some 30 degrees. I sat back and it returned to the expected bearing. More testing confirms that the magnets in my headset are interfering with the compass; a compass that has probably sat right where it is anmd tested ok for a very long time!

 

My compass is mounted high on the tube steel frame immediately behind the front screen. Remounting the compass is problematic and I'm not sure if there is another fix apart from flying from the back seat.

 

Any ideas? Anyone???

 

kaz

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, sit back when you want an accurate read.

 

It may be that you have above average strength magnets in the headphones. Try someone else's headphones?

 

 

[Guernsey]

No land in sight? anywhere?Were you aiming for England?

Don't forget the five navigators of Flight 19 missed the entire span of the Carribean islands

Flying to and from England, yes. England is a big target so no real problems there and coming back is also not difficult as there are several Islands and rocky outlets, however with low cloud and sometimes fairly poor visibility there were defintely times when no land was in sight for some time particularly in a slow aircraft with strong head winds.

 

I am not trying to split hairs Turbo but merely pointing out that we knew where we should be and do not consider that we were lost, we knew the landmarks either side of track and would use those to re-adjust our heading when we made land fall. I must admit though, a drift recorder would have been handy in the Auster.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

My compass is mounted high on the tube steel frame immediately behind the front screen. Remounting the compass is problematic and I'm not sure if there is another fix apart from flying from the back seat.

Ours is mounted in exactly the same position and placarded "Compass is only accurate with generators and windshield heat OFF"Luckily I have a very capable back up (two actually), not sure what you do when you only have the one!

 

 

[Doug Evans]

map s & Ipad2 compass clock

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...My compass is mounted high on the tube steel frame immediately behind the front screen. Remounting the compass is problematic and I'm not sure if there is another fix apart from flying from the back seat.

Any ideas? Anyone???

 

kaz

The compass will have one or two adjustable magnets internally that allow you to adjust it in its installed position (usually by virtue of a couple of screws). The metal around it that does not change position relative to the compass is then not a worry. Moving other magnets or metal around in proximity will affect it. For instance the magnet in the speaker in the Aera 550 GPS will affect the compass if closer than about 30cm, but at that distance the error is less than the graduations on the compass.

I assume your headsets will be the same. Just don't lean near the compass while you are reading it, or hang the pax headset near it. If the magnets in your headset affect the compass from further away than 30cm, maybe you should try another headset brand / model.

 

 

[kaz3g]

...I assume your headsets will be the same. Just don't lean near the compass while you are reading it, or hang the pax headset near it. If the magnets in your headset affect the compass from further away than 30cm, maybe you should try another headset brand / model.

Thanks, David... I use a Pilot with ANR. I'm going to try my spare set, a David Clarke to see how it goes.

 

kaz

 

 

[M61A1]

Any combination of chart, map, compass, time piece (x4), GPS (OK I admit it), ILS, VOR, ADF, pen, thumb, forefinger and whizz wheel (CR5). Oh and not forgetting good old fashioned local knowledge! PS: Why are people who are out for a bit of recreational flying be it GA, or RAA, getting around with 2, 3 and even 4 GPS's? I just don't get it.

They'll be the same people that can't find their way to work every day without their navman lighting up the dash in the car.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Haven't had a chance yet to do a long Nav with a GPS. So it would be charts and wizz wheel still. Tom Tom is a hit in the car.

 

At the speeds i fly the Lazair at these days it is point to point, more like fence post to fence post.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Haven't had a chance yet to do a long Nav with a GPS. So it would be charts and wizz wheel still. Tom Tom is a hit in the car.At the speeds i fly the Lazair at these days it is point to point, more like fence post to fence post.

Just make sure that you don't drift off track and hit the wire between the posts.

 

Alan.

 

 

[ayavner]

I haven't even started the whole navigation mess yet, still working up to first solo. But although the Jab dash has a GPS in it, my first experience in a small aircraft (172) before I started ab-initio, my mate took me up, even let me fly it for awhile (I did already have some aviation background via the AF), he always used the map and visual references, even for the area he was no doubt familiar with. That really stuck with me as how cool is this to be able to make sense of all this jumble on the map and use it to get somewhere!

 

So, Yeah I'll definitely be wanting to do it the time-tested way, map, compass, watch, wheel etc. Maybe a GPS for a quick visual reference here n there, but I think that the traditional methods of navigation are part of the package - its why some of us get into this in the first place, to follow in the footsteps of those who have gone before, and perhaps experience a little bit of what they did! Lindbergh didn't have GPS...