issues of concern across the industry where they may exist and what "we" the RAA community can do to

[winsor68]

Constructive criticism...

 

Given that CASA has recently audited Ra-Aus... I would ask Ra-Aus to show me their records showing the past and ongoing auditing they have undertaken of the commercial operations they have been tasked with overseeing on behalf of CASA... shouldn't be too hard but then again given the enormous growth over the last few years it may take a bit of effort.

 

 

[David Isaac]

We know that Gary Morgan's (24) registered aircraft are temporarily grounded but do we know and are allowed to say what other manufactured (24) aircraft are also grounded.I am just trying to get some sort of scale as to how many aircraft and Flying Schools are affected.

Alan.

Alan,

The aircraft affected were all LSA and LSA type are the only aircraft NOT exempt the requirement to have a 'Special Certificate of Airworthiness'.

 

The Lightwing Speed 2000 and the Morgan Sierra were found to be missing the 'Special Certificate of Airworthiness', some Jabirus had a certificate but it was not on the RA Aus records and these were produced and those aircraft were cleared to fly.

 

In reality it only affected the 24 registered Sierras and a handful of Speed 2000s.

 

Once a 'Special Certificate of Airworthiness' is produced both these aircraft will be cleared.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Guernsey: the information about the grounding should be in the public domain as its serious issue with significant implications. Either on the RAA website or via the magazine. If its not then you probably need to contact the RAA directly.

Thanks for your reply however I know about the grounding as we have a 24 registered Sierra, but that was not my question.

 

Alan.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Facthunter: My main issue with the RAA is that they are covering up a lot of unsafe practices because the system is designed not to disclose unsafe practices.

 

Do you think I should go to CASA with my issues?

 

 

[farri]

David how do you feel about forming a group to make a submission to CASA about improving the RAA?

FT, I`m a bit confused with your question! Are you implying that the RAA needs improving and if so, what do you perceive, needs to be improved?

 

Frank.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Farri I dont want to go into too much detail here as I would be pointing the finger at an individual when I think the issue is possibly affecting a large proportion of RAA activities.

 

 

[facthunter]

fly tornado...NO.... It won't be a winner for you, the RAAus or Aviation. It's not the way to do things at the moment. CASA is not a perfect organisation ( based on the way they have done many things over the years). They have to "keep up an appearance of carrying out their "regulatory" role.to keep the government off their backs.

 

Don't forget that the safest condition for U/L ( or any for that matter) Aircraft is to make them static exhibits.

 

You have to support your organisation till they have been allowed time to respond fully to issues that have only just occurred. Much of what has happened COULD be individuals letting the organisation down, rather than the other way around. I have personally witnessed quite a lot of that and I have a total of about 10 friends who are now deceased, in the last 10 years because of shortcomings of one kind or another in the flying field. Even so the idea of encouraging a "heavy regulatory hand" fills me with a feeling that it would bring a worse outcome than otherwise.

 

Education before regulation. Don't give up even one small freedom easily, IF at all. You fella's don't realise how lucky you are. ( Some anyway). Nev

 

 

[farri]

Farri I dont want to go into too much detail here as I would be pointing the finger at an individual when I think the issue is possibly affecting a large proportion of RAA activities.

Ok, That`s fair enough,but why would you want CASA involved?......Can`t it be dealt with through the RAA?

 

Frank.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Facthunter: My main issue with the RAA is that they are covering up a lot of unsafe practices because the system is designed not to disclose unsafe practices.Do you think I should go to CASA with my issues?

FT you persist in these sweeping allegations about RA Aus yet you don't put up any evidence ... what on earth are you talking about when you say .... "covering up a lot of unsafe practices because the system is designed not to disclose unsafe practices".

Are you doing this to antagonize the discussion or are there real issues that you can put up to give your allegations credibility.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The reason why I think that CASA can sort this out is previously, I walked away and kept my mouth shut and that almost ended in a pilot getting killed. My fear is that the RAA will eventually get sued after a third party gets killed and the unsafe practices which they are turning their backs on whilst void the public liability insurance they have. Leaving me with no licence and an unregistered plane, that sounds selfish eh? The Ferris wheel incident shows how random these accidents are and too some degree how easily they can happen.

 

 

[old man emu]

Pardon my ignorance, but I have not been following the Ferris Wheel incident, so I don't get the gist of this thread.

 

1. Can someone post the link to any published report by CASA or RAA about the ferris wheel incident?

 

2. What were the grounds stated for the suspension(?) of approval of Morgan aircraft?

 

3. Did investigation into this incident cause the discovery of incomplete documentation for some aircraft?

 

4. Is there an air of disappointment that some punitive action was not taken by CASA or the RAA?

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[facthunter]

The system is NOT designed to keep unsafe practices hidden. There has always been a requirement to put in reports of unsafe practices and many persons are able to do this. . In a general sense ANY person observing an aircraft operating in an unsafe manner is required to report it to the regulatory body.

 

Some people don't adhere to this and they break the law. They also don't help us benefit from others mistakes to the full extent and they may also be the cause of sloppy maintenance/operational practices being covered up.

 

If you saw something illegal being done YOU can, (and if you have reason to believe that it will not be reported, if YOU don't do it, may have an arguable moral duty to), report it .

 

YOU had an obligation to report it in those circumstances. IF RAAus did not react sufficiently, (as far as you determined it in your own set of values), you should forward it to CASA or ATSB. I would think it reasonable that you would inform RAAus in that event of your proposed course of action, as a matter of procedure and courtesy. That is the way it works.

 

I sympathise with your sentiments. Perhaps we have an element of rebel or cowboy out there and they can bring us (collectively) a poor outcome . I believe this happened at almost the time . McCormick. came on the scene and everything went on hold. I probably had more ot lose then than most and It cost me a lot of money, and I'm not amused at all, but you have to stick together and make the system work or change it.

 

I believe CASA should change to something like the USA regulatory body ( The FAA) in structure and purpose, inso much as the welfare of the aviation sector has to be considered in enforcing regulatory power and process. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

My problem is that aviation community being a small and tightly knitted one that I don't want to be persecuted for doing the right thing and blowing the whistle.

 

I have no incentive to save anyone.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Pardon my ignorance, but I have not been following the Ferris Wheel incident, so I don't get the gist of this thread.

 

1. Can someone post the link to any published report by CASA or RAA about the ferris wheel incident?

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3525311/ao2011126_prelim.pdf

 

2. What were the grounds stated for the suspension(?) of approval of Morgan aircraft?

No 'Special certificate of Airworthiness' on file

 

3. Did investigation into this incident cause the discovery of incomplete documentation for some aircraft?

Yes

 

4. Is there an air of disappointment that some punitive action was not taken by CASA or the RAA?

Punitive action has not been confirmed, but the aircraft missing the certificates have been grounded and it is difficult to argue that is unfair unless there are special circumstances

[facthunter]

ft it's realistic that you would feel that way. Your report should be "confidential" or many people won't do it for the reason you stated. In the past RAAus" leaked like a seive". The cries for absolute openness of all matters mitigated against changing this.

 

Too close an association with CASA could cause a problem too. to discuss little choice bits of titillating news out of school, should be refrained from.

 

On the other side of the coin there would be occasions where they would HAVE to be informed, if there was an immediate flow-on to other sections of aviation or the general public in a need to know or safety sense.

 

When it is necessary to have investigations of impropriety/ malpractice the knowledge of it being generally released prematurely, could compromise the process. The individual who is the object of the enquiry should have his/her rights and reputation protected also and the process must be fair and transparent.

 

This gets back to the dual role we must perform that I have referred to a few times now. . It's a tricky question, and a delicate balancing act. Nev

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

My problem is that aviation community being a small and tightly knitted one that I don't want to be persecuted for doing the right thing and blowing the whistle.I have no incentive to save anyone.

I learnt more about what is driving you in the last few posts than anything you posted before. As it turns out almost all of us here have the same to loose, its just a case of how mnay $ are at risk, and arguably even that isnt a fair measure, at 30, $30k is likely much more painful to put at risk than $100k 20 years later.......as they say your milage may vary depending on yur personal circumstances.

 

Anyway, that wasnt so hard was it? you now look like a guy with an actual problem rather than a sh&t stirrer!!

 

Irronically I reacted as strongly as I did towars you for exactly the same reason I percieved your behavious and responses put my personal freedoms at risk!

 

Andy

 

 

[old man emu]

Thanks, David.

 

I have now read the prelim report. I am astounded at the build quality of the airplane involved. Those pictures make fine examples of what not to do.

 

Can you explain the requirements for the issue of a "Special Certificate of Airworthiness" (or post a link)

 

In regards to the reluctance of the regulatory bodies to act on incident reports. I have personal experience of two situations where repeated reports have been brushed aside.

 

We have discovered that the stainless steel control cables of a model of certified aircraft from well known American maker have worn more rapidly than one might expect. We have reported this fact to CASA whose comment is that the manufacturer does not consider the rate of wear (about 1500 hours) to be unusual, and declines to issue some form of warning bulletin. This despite the fact that such a bulletin was issued regarding the same type of cables in another part of the same model airplane's primary control system. Based on that comment, CASA has not issued any notice to local owner/operators.

 

In the other case, a well known Australian produced airplane has suffered numerous incidents of metal and foreign material being found in the oil filter. The manufacturers claim that it is not unusual to find such matter when the filter is examined. Since some of these airplanes are registered with CASA, defect reports have been submitted, but again, no warning has been issued by CASA.

 

Vigorous regulation of airplane maintenance and construction is one of the vital steps in promoting aviation safety. It is essential that regulatory bodies maintain a close surveillance of these matters. Initially this will cause some grief to some people, but as the message that is the basis of the surveillance takes hold, standards will rise, to the benefit of all who might be affected by aviation.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I kind of hate the RAA for the situation it puts me in. If they where doing their job properly I wouldn't be in this situation.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I kind of hate the RAA for the situation it puts me in. If they where doing their job properly I wouldn't be in this situation.

Can you elaborate FT, being less cryptic in your responses may facilitate some support. This is the objective of the thread.

 

 

[Powerin]

Agree Andy. Finally we can see where you are coming from FT. Difficult situation.

 

It reveals a fundamental dichotomy between openness and confidentiality within an organisation. On the one hand we have calls for RAAus to be open and transparent (as FT did in post #24) and on the other hand we have people unwilling to report serious matters for fear of being persecuted because it might get out (FT again). I can see why you want RAA to be opened up in hope that your problem might be exposed FT, but it is that openness that is preventing you from reporting it.

 

Nev, as usual, has summed it up nicely - "It's a tricky question, and a delicate balancing act."

 

At some stage we have to trust that the people WE elected will get the balance right, or we remove them at the next election.

 

 

[Litespeed]

FT,

 

Yes it is difficult to be the squeaky wheel.

 

But we all have a duty of care to our fellow airman, the RAA and the public.

 

How would you feel if the problem you mention lead to death of the pilot or worse someone on the ground?

 

If we have a rogue amongst us then they must be reported.

 

RAA must take all reports seriously.

 

Do it in writing with registered post as well as via e-mail.

 

Outline very clearly what you saw and how you believe it breached the rules.

 

Provide a clear intention to take the matter further for the benefit of members and the public if no suitable investigation/action is taken.

 

You have now notified your issues and should expect prompt action.

 

If you have previously notified then mention this and when- ask why no actiion or why you have not been informed of the actions taken.

 

Keep in mind the pilot? involved has a right to natural justice and confidentiality until the issue is resolved.

 

Once determination is made, I beleive pilots/manufacturers if found wanting should be publicised.

 

Confidentiality should only extend to the innocent- if proven in a fair process to be guilty- then they should be outed in the RAA community.

 

Openess is not about been punitative but to ensure we all learn from others mistakes, and to ensure RAA is seen to be doing its role correctly.

 

RAA has a big role to play in fostering a culture of safe operations and adherence to the rules. We all are responsible to ensure that happens and continues.

 

We do not need more rules or the hand of god-CASA to sort stuff out.

 

Remember there are many ways to skin a cat or cook a frog- put the frog in cold water and slowly bring to boil, he sits in the pot happily.

 

Throw him in hot water and he will jump screaming- and you get splashed in burning water. Collateral burns are not what we want.

 

I work in disability services for children and adults. The rules are immense and often seen as excessive.

 

Pity the poor bugger accussed of misconduct, careers can be destroyed if the process is not fair.

 

But if it saves one person from abuse or death.............................then it must be in place.

 

I say this from experience, I was accussed and found innocent- yes it was painful, yes it was a ridiculus allegation, yes I was angry.

 

But I am glad the rules and process were in place, and would galdly suffer again knowing that some are found true and a client gets protected.

 

Just ensure the process is fair and let the truth come out.

 

We must have the courage to support eachother and ACT when needed.

 

Phil

 

 

[Litespeed]

My problem is that aviation community being a small and tightly knitted one that I don't want to be persecuted for doing the right thing and blowing the whistle.I have no incentive to save anyone.

This is always a big problem...............

 

You may need to be creative and have some member of the public or another member etc do it on your behalf. If you cannot make a complaint even with your confidentiality been kept- then maybe it would be obvious it was you who informed RAA?

 

Without more details it hard to advise you.

 

You can PM me if you like, leave out names etc and we can chat.

 

Phil:cheers:

 

 

[djpacro]

...From my perspective, if the RAA shut down .... any other manufacturer ....

I think you'll find that RAA has no responsibility or authority wrt manufacture of production LSA etc.

[David Isaac]

I think you'll find that RAA has no responsibility or authority wrt manufacture of production LSA etc.

David,

can you elaborate on that please.

 

 

[djpacro]

David, I was specifically referring to LSA manufactured in a production facility as a finished aeroplane. LSA is basically self-certified by the manufacturer and CASA is responsible for oversight. Take a look at the oversight given to the Cessna Skycatcher by the USA FAA as an example of the sort of things that CASA might do.

 

LSA get a Certificate of Airworthiness - from a CASA delegate.

 

Some-one decides whether to register it with CASA or RAA.

 

Maintenance iaw CASA or RAA rules as appropriate.

 

Refer Part 21 of the regs and the easy to read advisory circulars on the CASA website.

 

Go to the RAA website - do you see anything contrary to the above? (I haven't looked at it for a few years)