Sideslip as a manoeuvre

[eightyknots]

On a day with a reasonable wind find a straight road which is as close to 90 degrees from the wind as possible, then start at one end of the road and try to fly along the road with your nose aligned to the road. To do this you need to take out the crab with rudder then lean the plane into wind with aileron, just as you would when doing a crosswind landing. When you get to the end of the road, turn around and do the same in the opposite direction. Repeat until bored . Obviously you would not want to get below 500 feet AGL - I am around 1000 feet when I do it.

Cheers

 

Neil

Interesting practice manouevre, Neil_S

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Eightyknots, I only have time in the VG classic, so can't really comment on the XL or S. However all the later models have the VGs, so I don't believe there is much difference between them all, except for exterior styling and interior room. Flying wise, they should all be similiar, as far as slipping goes..

 

Fly-tornado, You don't need to be a master of all skills to be a safe pilot. We all move at different paces, fly different profiles, in different aircraft...There's plenty of room in the sky for all comers !.................................Maj...

 

 

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I'm not particularly good at it, but its very refreshing on a hot day in a Drifter to get some fresh air in.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea 90% is nowhere near accurate. Our school would br closer to 10%.... and we use Jabs ( I'm not scared to name them maj.. Lol)

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Go on youtube and search for AOPAlive. They seem to think the solution to the decline of aviation starts at the flying schools.

 

 

[kaz3g]

And in the right type it is a fun manovoure, the decathalons are really cool and I been flying a eurofox lately that side slips beautifully. I have heard some of the cessnas can be a hand full if you slip them with flap out, never done it ,anyone got any comments?

Hi Matt

 

Many of the C172 line-up (40 degree flaps) have a prohibition on side slipping in the flight manual because the flaps tend to blank the tail. I think that's also the case with the Warrior alsthough the flaps are so small on them I really wonder.

 

The Auster sideslips very well but those big wings catch the wind something fierce in crosswinds. I find getting it on the ground is fine but it is easy to lose it afterwards as the into wind wing lifts and the tail tries to swing downwind. Keeps me very busy on the rudder pedals!

 

kaz

 

 

[sfGnome]

I was taught side slipping and forward slipping as a matter of course - I didn't even think of it being any different to any other normal maneuver until this thread came up, but it got me thinking. I was on holidays one time and I took the opportunity to have a check flight at the local school because they had an aircraft type that I wouldn't normally have access to. There was a moderate crosswind, so I just forward slipped it as is my normal practice until the instructor ordered (there's no other word for it) me to "stop side slipping!". It's his plane, so I'm not going to argue (ever notice that no two instructors follow the same set of rules? but I digress), so I just crabbed it instead and all were happy. Point is, presumably there's one school where you're not going to get too much side slip practice...

 

 

[pudestcon]

I was taught side slipping in the Drifter, and not just a quick lesson either, it was over a number of lessons and I had to get it right. Must say though that I haven't used it much since, and never in the Thruster - does anyone know how a Thruster handles the side slip? I'll give it a go next time I'm flying. The Thruster drops pretty quickly anyway when the power is reduced to idle. I can only think of one time when I could have sideslipped the Thruster to set up better for landing, as it was I just flared a bit 'hot' and let the speed wash off before doing a wheeler. Could still be useful on a short strip though.

 

Pud

 

 

[Tomo]

I remember doing a couple lessons on slipping, best thing that was ever taught me I think, use it all the time for various reasons. Some instructors I've flown with tell you to ease out of the slip way above the ground... In the Drifter I keep it in right up to and come out of it as you flare, makes for a neat landing to I reckon.

 

172's slip nicely with flap up, I remember on my GFPT test he did a circuit engine failure on me, then on base said the flaps aren't working either... slipped it in on final easing out in the flare, he passed me so I guess it wasn't to bad!

 

I would love to fly with someone that knows they slip properly and just see if I am doing it right, as you hear lots of people saying that many people can't do it correctly, well I'd like to see If I am someday.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Tomo, From what I've seen of your slipping in your videos, your doing it ok.

 

When I started training GA in California I already had a hard earned 400+ UL hours, and was well versed at slipping, as my initial UL instructor had taught me well.

 

During GA training we were doing circuts at the home field (San Carlos CA.) in a C152, and as was the habit of the day with unreliable ULs, I generally flew a 'high' circut to allow a safe return should the engine fail.

 

On final during these circuts, he was constantly telling me "your too high, your too high" which I really wasn't as I was still putting it on not far from the numbers, every time. Next final, same thing, "your too high".....I put the little 152 into an agressive LH side-slip, knocked off 200', straightened up beautifully on final again, and asked him "hows' that ?"....

 

He was speachless !!...he never told me again ever, that I was too high. Later back in the classroom, I heard him outside telling another instructor.." he put the damn thing into a full-on side-slip, I couldn't believe it !"...

 

I quickly went onto 172s as a student, and passed for an unrestricted PPL not long afterwards. I still keep in contact with my old instructor as we became good friends.........................................Maj...

 

 

[facthunter]

Tomo, with the type of planes you fly and the varied experience you have had. there is a virtual guarantee that you have the right technique.

 

I have said that it doesn't appear to be popular or well understood generally in RAAus circles. I haven't been everywhere though, and there may be areas where it is done well. This of course has to relate to what the instructors are promoting.

 

A general summary (not a guide to teaching yourself. from scratch)

 

The entry sets it off.

 

Have your speed back, throttle closed and. get the bank on, and hold it, This may require a bit of effort, and often this is where the technique goes wrong. You must try to keep the wing down or the result will only be a horrible skid .

 

The plane will want to turn in the direction of the lower wing, so stop this happening with opposite rudder, applied positively as the desired bank is achieved. IF you end up with full rudder and the plane is still turning you have done well, so then reduce the bank angle, slightly IF you want to stop the turn.

 

The pitch has to be adjusted, with good control , and carefully maintained at the right attitude which you will determine with experience and feel, rather than aiming for a stated airspeed which cannot be relied on as the readings are generally erroneous, (and is different in most cases when the slip is done to the opposite side), It may take a while till you can comfortably maintain speed control , but without it you are not safe.

 

You need quite a bit of practice getting the relationship between the three controls to interact correctly and each aircraft will feel quite different. Watch for pitch instability. If there is any sense of lack of correct feel in the elevator give it away and do a balance check or see if there is any known problems with the model.

 

Practice at altitude initially but practice exitting the slip cleanly, on a fixed predetermined height. It only involves taking rudder off and levelling the wings in a nice coordinated fashion and sometimes a lowering of the nose slightly. . Nev

 

 

[naremman]

I had Bernie Saroff on the verge of scrubbing me out of the Spot Landing Competition of an Australian Light Aircraft Championship for a full sideslip of the Airtourer over the fence when a quartering tailwind sprung up.

 

Bernie was far from amused and stated that I had operated the aircraft beyond its limits. Luckily the original Victa Operators Handbook cleared the Airtourer for sideslips with full flap up to 87KIAS. Bernie countered with the rules did not allow sideslips. Nope, sideslips with flap were a no no in the Forced Landing, but no such exclusion existed in the Spot Landing.

 

"Did you feel that were unsafe when we landed Bernie" questions I. "Well no, it was done safely, but who taught you to do that"? replied Mr Saroff. Once I mentioned who my instructor was there was no further conversation, and after shut down Bernie got out wordlessly and stumped off to the next aircraft!!

 

 

[facthunter]

Tell us ......Who was your instructor? Bernie and I know each other, but that's a hell of a long time ago when I was an Instructor at Royal Newcastle

 

(Briefly).

 

Russ Evans , Tom Curlewis? ( a couple of notables.)

 

The blackboard shows me as PPL.. Nev

 

 

[Timold]

Hi all I have been reading with interest this disscussion on slipping, I think that slipping or forward slipping is quite seat of the pants you are continually ajusting rudder, aileron And elevator all the way down. Tim

 

 

[djpacro]

DP, I've heard some of the Cessnas can behave badly with full flap in a side slip, something about the flap blanketing the elevator,,,is that right, I haven't tried it but I'd like to! at height!!!!

From the book "Cessna, Wings for the World" printed 1992 by William D Thompson, former manager of Flight Test and Aerodynamics at Cessna:

 

we encountered a nose down pitch in forward slips with the flaps deflected. In some cases it was severe enough to lift the pilot against his seat belt if he was slow in checking the motion. For this reason a caution note was placed in most of the owner's manuals under 'Landings' reading 'Slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 30O due to to the downward pitch encountered under certain combinations of airspeed, side-slip angle, and center of gravity loadings.' ... the cause of the pitching motion is the transition of a strong wing downwash over the tail in straight flight to a lessened downwash angle over part of the horizontal tail ... This phenomenon was elusive and sometimes hard to duplicate ... When the larger dorsal fin was adopted in the 1972 C-172L, this sideslip pitch phenomenon was eliminated, but the cautionary placard was retained. In the higher powered C-172P and C-R172 the placard was applicable to a mild pitch 'pumping' motion resulting from a flap outboard-end vortex impingement on the horizontal tail at some combinations of sideslip angle, power, and airspeed.

[terryc]

I was taught side slipping in the Drifter, and not just a quick lesson either, it was over a number of lessons and I had to get it right. Must say though that I haven't used it much since, and never in the Thruster - does anyone know how a Thruster handles the side slip? I'll give it a go next time I'm flying. The Thruster drops pretty quickly anyway when the power is reduced to idle. I can only think of one time when I could have sideslipped the Thruster to set up better for landing, as it was I just flared a bit 'hot' and let the speed wash off before doing a wheeler. Could still be useful on a short strip though.Pud

Hi Pud, the thruster is one of the easiest to side slip, easy to enter and easy to exit. I didn't like it at first but now I do.

 

 

[Powerin]

As a student I'm a bit fuzzy on the difference between a forward slip and a side slip. I can't say I've heard of a forward slip.

 

Is this right? .....

 

Sideslip = yaw away from desired track (with opposite aileron to compensate) to increase drag.

 

Forward slip = yaw towards desired track (again with ailerons) to compensate for X-wind drift? (I've learnt both)

 

A while ago my instructor was demonstrating a point and we ended up on base for short final very high (Tecnam P2002). I asked whether to go around...he said "up to you". So seeing a good opportunity to learn I turned final, dumped full flaps, rudder to the firewall, very steep descent, good landing. Very satisfying when training elements all come together.

 

As far as I'm concerned a sideslip is an important tool....especially to get into the chosen forced landing spot when you over-compensate on height.

 

 

[pudestcon]

Hi Pud, the thruster is one of the easiest to side slip, easy to enter and easy to exit. I didn't like it at first but now I do.

Why didn't you like it at first Terry? I'm interested in your experience.

Pud

 

 

[djpacro]

Bernie was far from amused and stated that I had operated the aircraft beyond its limits. Luckily the original Victa Operators Handbook cleared the Airtourer for sideslips with full flap up to 87KIAS.

My copy of the AT100 Pilot's Handbook from '63 is the same but with a handwritten amendment to 100 kts - there are quite a few handwritten amendments throughout and too neat to be in my handwriting. My 2002 copy of the AT115 POH simply says "Side slipping with the flaps down is permitted". Elsewhere I see that max flap extended speed is 100 kts.Back in the good (bad?) old days flying schools had their own Handling Notes and I see that Moorabbin Aviation Academy's states for the Victa 115 that you could do sideslips with flaps down below 80 kts (not below 70) however goes on to say that "Sideslipping in the full flapped configuration is not permitted." Perhaps Bernie had been reading one of these.

Aub Coote would've had me doing steep sideslips in an Airtourer when I was a young lad.

 

 

[naremman]

Tell us ......Who was your instructor? Bernie and I know each other, but that's a hell of a long time ago when I was an Instructor at Royal Newcastle(Briefly).

Russ Evans , Tom Curlewis? ( a couple of notables.)

 

The blackboard shows me as PPL.. Nev

Happily, Nev. The Instructor with who succeeded in pounding the most into my flying skills was Doug Dawson when he was at Narrogin Flying Club. Doug succeeded John Douglas at Narrogin when John moved to RACWA. I have over 50 hours Dual logged with DB Dawson as he took me through PPL, Class 4 Instrument Rating, CSU, Tiger & Chippie endorsements.

 

Doug commenced his flying career with learning to fly with ATC on C150s at Jandakot. He was then accepted into the Army and ended up at Pt Cook. In Army uniform on his first lessson on Winjeels the Instructor asked: "who taught you to fly son"? "ATC Sir". Went down really well.

 

Pt Cook, thence to Amberley to fixed wing on C180s, before a tour of PNG on the C180, and then another tour of PNG with Porters.

 

A tour of Vietnam in Porters, and then the lovely Mr Whitlam put a whole heap of Army personel into limbo.

 

I encontered CFI Dawson when he was making the transition from Army pilot to civilian instructor. He did not make the transition easily, and for those who encountered him at this stage, we probably received a more military based training than civil. I can't say I enjoyed all of my training, but it took me a fair while before I fully appreciated how thoroughly we had been trained. "I'll make a pilot of you first, and a mate out of you later" was a comment that turned out to be remarkably accurate.

 

Doug has impacted on many within the aviation community, from the humble PPL to blokes who are now piloting B747s worldwide, and importantly his RFDS contribution. 30,000 hours, of which 10,000 are instructional hours has an inevitable influence.

 

Sadly we both experienced losing our first wives to breast cancer.

 

I have been incredibly fortunate to have have flown with many exceptionly credentialed pilots and instructors. I have learnt from each and every experience. Following Bernie Saroff at ALAC, my two following Air Judges were Terry Hardy and Mary Walton. What a privilege to have that opportunity. I have no adverse opinion on Bernie Saroff. I fully respect his contribution as an instructor, his work within RFACA and promoting aviation within Australia.

 

On embarking on a jouney thRough aviaition we can encounter some exceptional individuals. It has been my good fortune to meet what was probably more than my fair share. Am I fortunate. BLOOD OATH!!

 

 

[naremman]

My copy of the AT100 Pilot's Handbook from '63 is the same but with a handwritten amendment to 100 kts - there are quite a few handwritten amendments throughout and too neat to be in my handwriting. My 2002 copy of the AT115 POH simply says "Side slipping with the flaps down is permitted". Elsewhere I see that max flap extended speed is 100 kts.Back in the good (bad?) old days flying schools had their own Handling Notes and I see that Moorabbin Aviation Academy's states for the Victa 115 that you could do sideslips with flaps down below 80 kts (not below 70) however goes on to say that "Sideslipping in the full flapped configuration is not permitted." Perhaps Bernie had been reading one of these.

Aub Coote would've had me doing steep sideslips in an Airtourer when I was a young lad.

G'day David,

 

Just shows how much variation of opinion can occur for the same airframe.

 

The one configuration you don't want to experience with the Airtourer on approach is "low and slow". I have always set myself up on a higher approach profile, knowing that you can kick the height off. I operate mainly off either 500 or 400 metre strips where the margin of error is not high. Sideslip is integral in nailing the threshold.

 

Never met Aub Coote, though his reputation within the Airtourer crowd is legendary. Did you encounter the pulled mixture, and keys into the ashtray forced landing routine? Hopefully you were not the bloke that Aub tried this with, only to find that there was no ashtray, and the keys disapeared into the instrument coaming!!

 

Have met John Willis a couple of times, and he has gone out and given MOC a hug as one of the first Airtourers that he instructed on.

 

Further to your post on sideslipping Cessnas. Ialso fly a C172M and never encountered a problem with up to 30 degrees flap. 40 degrees flap is enough to "brick it" anyway.

 

Can remember on my first intructional night flying lesson in a C172, and on being told on final that I was too high on approach kicked in some sideslip. The reaction from the right hand seat convinced me that there was limited merit in trying that again!!

 

 

[facthunter]

Somebody did the "pulled" keys and they ended up on the floor where no-one could reach them at Newcastle too. Could have been the same event.

 

A good instructor doesn't have to be your best mate. Over the years the ( keep your distance from the students) was promoted more than perhaps today.

 

Students should not expect any favours of an instructor who is a close friend. That certainly would not produce the best results.

 

I prefer a fairly hard taskmaster , but not insensitive. A penneth of praise (where deserved) is better than a pound of criticism. Nev

 

 

[farri]

Appart from the technique required to side slip the aircraft successfully, the fact is that some AC side slip easier and better than others...The more lateral fuselage there is on an AC the more it will resist a side slip.

 

In a side slip, lets say, right wing down, the relative airflow is striking the fuselage, verticle fin and rudder, on the right hand side, therefore, the force is wanting to turn the nose of the AC back in a straight line with the relative airflow....The less fuselage the better the AC will side slip.

 

A student of mine ( When I was instructing ) who owns an X-Air, removed all the fabric covering on the fuselage. He says it can be maneuvered and side slipped much better without the covering.

 

As for instructors keeping their distance from their students, I`m affraid I disagree...I always believed in having a good rapport with all of my students and I still believe that a student needs to be praiesd and told when something is done correctly and also told when something is done incorrectly...After all, It is a lerning experience.

 

Frank

 

 

[Yenn]

So Aub is still up to his old tricks. He turned the fuel off with me in 1967. No problems. He didn't teach sideslips as we only had 150 and 172 cessnas.

 

I must hacve started sideslips with the victa, then Chippie and more recently with the Thruster and Corby. Just put in a bootfull of rudder and balance it with aileron to start, then fine tune it as you go. Good fun, safe and easy to recover from.

 

 

[kaz3g]

...Aub Coote would've had me doing steep sideslips in an Airtourer when I was a young lad.

Aub would have almost been a lad then, too!

 

kaz

 

PS Went down to Barwon Heada the other weekend and said "hi" to him. Asked if he was coming to the YCEM 50th but he thinks he will be too busy instructing on the day. I think he has 66 years up as an instructor???