Tomo Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Howdy folks! Just thought I'd put it out there... I'm starting my night rating next week, so thought I may as well hear from all the highly experienced folk, whether you have any stories you'd like to share. The good, bad etc... Something an experienced pilot told me once was, Night flying is much more dangerous than IFR, in cloud, because you have no safety nets. Pretty wise words to keep in the back of your head I reckon, so you don't let yourself get to blasé about it.
XP503 Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Used to go night flying over the GC with Grandpa - it is the most magical experience with all the lights. - However many will say that a Night VMC rating is for the sole purpose of departing before sun up and getting home after sunset without killing yourself, not for joyriding around at all hours of the night. 2
PapaFox Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Best advice I've heard is, if you're faced with an off-field landing at night, turn your landing light on. If you don't like what you see, turn it off! 2
Ferris Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Tomo, I just finished mine a few weeks ago. The instructor was very up front. If I wanted a rating to fly anywhere at night in VMC, train with him, if I wanted a rating to get home after dark, then look for another instructor. I chose the first, knowing that this particular instructor sets as a standard, double of everything in terms of hours, that CASA set as a minimum, and his syllabus was a fair bit wider. He insisted on doing everything I could expect or not expect on a night flight. Heaps of circuits on totally black nights, & no ground lighting; unfamiliar strips, adverse weather, in and out of mountainous strips, controlled airspace, and just about every combination of instrument and equipment failure he could manufacture. I reckon about every second landing involved either a partial or complete electrical failure! It was worth doing the whole course just for the flight into Melbourne at night. Absolutely spectacular. Just don't try to get back in the gate at Essendon after 10.00pm!! I'd feel confident to take off across the continent at night. Night flight carries a higher risk and I can only suggest that you seek out an instructor who sets a very high standard. Cheers Ferris 1
turboplanner Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Just remember that night VFR may be at night, but it's Visual Flight Rules - you have to be able to see a horizon - it's not IFR. Very applicable to wide open paddock country where lights are few and far between.
frank marriott Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Used to go night flying over the GC with Grandpa - it is the most magical experience with all the lights. - However many will say that a Night VMC rating is for the sole purpose of departing before sun up and getting home after sunset without killing yourself, not for joyriding around at all hours of the night. I agree. If you want to do long Xcountry trips at night do at least a PVT IFR rating with an aerodrome approach added or a CIR. Weather changes, and from LSAL to deck needs to be VFR on a night VMC [obviously Visual Met Conditons] rating. Ok for local joy flights etc where weather can be observed before flight. Frank
facthunter Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Good advice so far. I have never been a promoter of Night VFR. I have always advocated the Private IF Rating. If you want to land just afer dark or depart just before daylight it is a different matter. A lot of people don't make a good fist of Day VFR.. In the dark, you don't even know you are flying into cloud or fog till you see the nav lights shining into the milk. You still rely on your electrics. An emergency torch in the hand doesn't make for good map reading and flying at the same time. A forced landing without an engine doesn't really bear thinking about on a dark night. I know plenty of instructors and ex CASA people who think the concept is flawed . On a clear moonlit night over the lights of a town it's fascinating. When it's as black as the inside of a cows guts and your AH has failed and you are not sure what the little patch of lights below, beside, above you, ( where are we now, and which way up),is, you wonder why you put yourself in that position. Nev 2
farri Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Hey, Tomo! Q: What do you do, if you have an engine failure on a dark night? A: Switch the lights on. Q; What do you do if you don`t like what you see below you? A; Switch the lights off. Frank.
dazza 38 Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I dont think I would like to be flying at night in a piston single.
turboplanner Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I know one who isn't doing it any more - killed himself and two passengers. 1000 hours experience but flew into big acreage wheat area where there are very few lights.
Tomo Posted February 7, 2012 Author Posted February 7, 2012 Good advice so far. I have never been a promoter of Night VFR. I have always advocated the Private IF Rating. If you want to land just afer dark or depart just before daylight it is a different matter. Thanks everyone for your thoughts, exactly what I love to hear, keep them coming. I agree with you all, that it's not a thing to just go joy riding around the night with, but I'm doing it more for the fact I can leave on a flight (GA of course) a bit before sun up, and if it stretches into the afternoon get home again.. or whatever. And for the added skills. I would love to do the PIFR but can't afford that at this stage! One step at a time... Frank, yes that's what I've heard, if you don't like what you see, turn the light off! If you read in the latest Flight Safety magazine a guy tells his story of an engine failure on a black night. What saved him that night was that he climbed to altitude over the aerodrome before setting off. When his engine stopped he just scraped it back to the runway. Jim Davis often says to never take off into a black hole, so if you can take off in such a way that you can see some lights, either the town, or house/car etc... seems like pretty good advise I reckon.
Potter Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Night VFR is great for doing say Brisbane-Gold Coast where there are lots of lights. Or if there is a full moon it can be just like the day time. However, on a dark night away from the cities it is dangerous, but so is IFR. The equipment in the aeroplane has a big influence on safety. As for single engine at night, would only bother me if I was in something hot like a Lancair. Single, multi, NVFR or IFR at night, it can still be dangerous. It's definitely a good idea Tomo, you just have to set your own limits. 1
old man emu Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Tomo, Good for you. As part of your training you will have to eat lots and lots of carrots to improve your night vision. OME PS: I bought the bike in Warwick. Pick it up beginning of April
Bandit12 Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Who are you doing it through Tomo? As an aside, every mechanical/electrical issue I have ever had while flying happened when NVFR. Enough to make you a little nervous when the dash lets out a puff of smoke, the radio stops working and you need a radio to turn the runway lights on! Or the oil pressure/temp guages that acted like yoyos for an hour between Toowoomba and Gundi....
av8vfr Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 You have to climb above your LSALT within 3NM of the runway before you depart from memory. I flew into a storm downdraft (microburst?) at night flying YSGE to YROM in a PA28-151 several years ago... Not nice knowing you were at best climb angle (on instruments) and still 500fpm descending at full power....
farri Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 Frank, yes that's what I've heard, if you don't like what you see, turn the light off! If you read in the latest Flight Safety magazine a guy tells his story of an engine failure on a black night. Tomo, Top marks for all the training you are doing, it will make you a better pilot. Ultimately, it comes down to how and why you want to fly. Stay safe. Cheers, Frank.
Tomo Posted February 7, 2012 Author Posted February 7, 2012 Who are you doing it through Tomo?As an aside, every mechanical/electrical issue I have ever had while flying happened when NVFR. Enough to make you a little nervous when the dash lets out a puff of smoke, the radio stops working and you need a radio to turn the runway lights on! Or the oil pressure/temp guages that acted like yoyos for an hour between Toowoomba and Gundi.... Booked in to do it with DDAC in Toowoomba, I wanted to do it down in Brisbane, but with work lately being busy etc... it just wasn't happening, so decided to do it in Toowoomba, it's only 100klm each way rather than the odd 300klm to Brisy. One of benefits of Toowoomba is the nav's will be out west where there's nothing, whereas down the coast you can pretty much follow the lights... I think I'll stick to the 172 or 182 since I know those aeroplanes fairly well. I got the choice of doing it in the G1000 172, but figured that's cheating rather, and would be much easier than steam gauges and things that you can't see in the dark... if the lights don't work.
eightyknots Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 You have to climb above your LSALT within 3NM of the runway before you depart from memory.I flew into a storm downdraft (microburst?) at night flying YSGE to YROM in a PA28-151 several years ago... Not nice knowing you were at best climb angle (on instruments) and still 500fpm descending at full power.... Sounds like a great yarn but a horrendous experience. But, you survived to tell us about it!
HeadInTheClouds Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 One thing I can imagine night VFR being useful for - Taking off while it is just still dark and watching the sunrise from the air 1
Guest Howard Hughes Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 I dont think I would like to be flying at night in a piston single. When flying a single engine piston at night, I think you can hear every valve open and close!
djpacro Posted February 7, 2012 Posted February 7, 2012 ...any stories you'd like to share.... Only non-stories from me.I got my Night VFR Rating only because it was a prerequisite for the Instructor Rating. Soon after I moved to the USA. Not long after, my new boss asked me to pick him up at Jackson Hole Airport in a Husky. Departure from JAC would've been at night so I did a bit of research: No navaids or AH in the Husky but it had a few lights and a turn co-ordinator so it was night VFR Lowest safe altitude for JAC is 16,000 ft I picked him up in my Chevy Blazer. That is the first time I had ever considered flying at night since I got my rating. Some time later the boss asked me to take a Husky across the Rockies before dark then fly across the high plains - fairly flat but a long trip. I didn't think that was a good deal so I insisted on taking the Pitts. It took all day although I took the scenic route along the Rockies to Montana then east past the Bighorn Canyon and beyond. Reminds me, on one trip I realised (this was before Google) how some-one came up with the VFR requirements we adhere to today. Much of the USA some times of the year the visibility is 3 nm, regardless of altitude. A darker shade of grey indicates a nearby thunderstorm. If some-one had decided that VFR needed visibility of more than 3 nm it would close down a lot of GA flying. Just my opinion, I'm sure that my friends here could find a better reason on Google. All that without a slip ball, let alone a turn co-ordinator or AH. Why fly at night when I can do marveloous trips like that. I'd rather sit at my PC on FlightSim - the view as the same as flying at night. 1
J170 Owner Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 Personally I think flying at night in a single is madness. I've been in the back of a Duchess at night and it is black, I mean black down there. How the hell do you pick a paddock when you cannot see anything. Nope, night VFR is for mugs.... 1
naremman Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 Tomo, opening a thread like this is a bit like asking twenty Economists how do they view the current state of the economy. You will get 21 entirely different opinions. On one side of the coin acquiring a NVFR will equip you with many new skills, which will expand the flying horizons and are a benefit overall to all your flying. The obverse has many lethal possibilities. There are many good instructors in the avaition game, a few less in the very good category, and a handful that are considered oustanding. If you are going to do VFR don't do it with anybody less than one in the upper echelon category. My instructor was ex-Army, left me under no illusions on what we were embarking on, dented my pride and kicked my ego, before he considered I had a achieved a satisfactory skill level before he was prepared to book me a flight test. To the guys credit he also loved to mentor his students to achieve pretty high standards, and it took me a fair while to appreciate what he was able to accomplish with his students. I had the incredible good fortune to have John Marshall, the legendary Senior Examiner of Airman WA conduct my flight test in 1977, just a few weeks before he retired. "Relax young man, this is not a test, take me flying and convince me you are safe"!! We were only 20 minutes into what I anticipated what was a hour long flight test before John said: "take me home young man". I spent the the next few minutes doing a 180 back towards Perth and getting a clearance, all the while stewing over what I had stuffed up. Five minutes elapsed before John said: "you are safe, you now have a Class 4 Instrument Rating, Congratulations"!! Tomo you are astute to consider doing the bulk of your work in the boondocks. Until you are comfortable and competent in a "Black Hole" environment you are in skills deficit, with some very nasty possibilities. Some of my most memorable flights have been at night, an I really appreciate the broader perspective that flight at night achieves. I have always pondered: does the Lycoming really know when is tonking away at night?
facthunter Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Engines do not know whether it is night time or that they are over water, but on both occasions I would rather have more than one of them. At one stage of my flying career over 70% of my total hours was night time, so I have been there. ( In all kinds of weather, and till airborne weather radar was installed, it could be very hairy. It took a Viscount breaking up in a thunderstorm and falling into Botany Bay, on departure from Sydney to move it along). Possibly Mr. Marshall didn't like NVFR either and was happy to get the test over with. This is a sentiment expressed to me by plenty of ex examiners of airmen. Nev
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