Instructing with 75 hrs command...WTF?

[kiwicrusader]

I wanted to do my RAA FI rating recently. I don't really want to teach ab initio, rather be able to issue tailwheel endorsements, low flying endorsements, strip flying etc.... There are regular articles of people coming unstuck while low flying, mustering etc... That and landing and take off accidents on farm strips and unprepared runways. As a 5000 hr Ag. Pilot I thought I maybe able to offer up some of the lessons I have learned and give something back to the industry that has treated me pretty well.

 

So I go to both of the local RAA schools to make some enquiries on how to do this. I was politely told that I wouldn't fit in their particular aircraft, so I have dismissed the idea for now.

 

Then last week I am flicking through 'Sport Pilot' magazine and read the article of an 18 year old bloke who has 75hrs and is soon to begin his FI rating. The article does not suggest he intends to use it but never the less this is not enough experience for an instructor. No disrespect to this young man but it was a poorly written article and if one of my kids wanted to learn to fly, and I knew nothing about it, I would not let them learn with someone with this level of experience.

 

If the article was meant to inspire wannabe students to take that first step and have their first lesson, it failed and did more harm than good.

 

My two cents worth anyway.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Its the RAA way.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Its the RAA way.

 

 

[Tex]

Not just the RAA way... in AVIATION the way to build your hours, to get a non-instructing role is to instruct. I still find it quite bizarre. Any other 'industries" out there where those that have the least experience are encouraged to instruct to gain experience?

 

 

[farri]

Hi Kiwicrusader, I`m not sure just what this means, "I was politely told that I wouldn't fit in their particular aircraft"

 

I`m interested to know the type of AC, please!

 

Frank.

 

 

[kiwicrusader]

Hey Frank.

 

I am 186cm and 128 kgs. Both schools had 2 seat Jabirus. Looking at them, I agree, I wouldn't fit. However instead of getting the information I asked for, I was soon sent on my way. I wasn't there to see if they could train me, just to find out what I need to do, to be able to do what I would like to do.

 

Cheers,

 

Kiwi

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Not just the RAA way... in AVIATION the way to build your hours, to get a non-instructing role is to instruct. I still find it quite bizarre. Any other 'industries" out there where those that have the least experience are encouraged to instruct to gain experience?

One of the problems with the RAA, instead of fixing the system it just recreates it. Talk about a missed opportunity.

 

 

[robinsm]

When I started flying I was 150cm and 123kg. No problems fitting into a Gazelle or an xair. Maybe these later aircraft are made for "standard sized people".

 

 

[farri]

Hey Frank.I am 186cm and 128 kgs. Both schools had 2 seat Jabirus. Looking at them, I agree, I wouldn't fit. However instead of getting the information I asked for, I was soon sent on my way. I wasn't there to see if they could train me, just to find out what I need to do, to be able to do what I would like to do.

 

Cheers,

 

Kiwi

Kiwi, Thanks!..I`ve just got back from an excellent flight in the Drifter.

 

Looks like you got a raw deal on the info but I just did a conversion on 186cm and that`s 6 feet and 1 inch and 20.15 stone in the old scale!...You are a big boy!..No offence ment, whatsoever.

 

I reckon with 5000hr as an Ag pilot,you must be a good one and I`m sure you have skills to contribute, it`s just unfortunate that recreational (Ultralight ) aircraft are designed for blokes my size.

 

When I was instructing, a guy who was mad keen on Ultralights, turned up, wanting to learn to fly the Drifter. He was a retired federal police man, over 2 metres tall and 145 kg.... The WB Austflight Drifter has a front seat weight limit of 92 kg and 145kg was way too much over, so I had to tell him I couldn`t do it..... You can believe he was dissapointed!

 

A couple of years later he turned up again, Just as big, and this time, tried to twist both my arms, to take him up....Feeling sympathy for him, I did a few calculations and I would have been able to take him up in the back seat....He tried to get into the back seat but he could hardly fit in it and though he had his head bent right down,it was up against the wing, .... I was able to make him realise that it wasn`t a good idea to go flying,so I went up solo and did a few tight manouvers over the field while he looked on.

 

He was a happy man and went home understanding that the Drifter and Ultralight aircraft in general were not meant for him.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[Ultralights]

so how is it any different from a 120hr CPL getting his instructor rating and training those to commercial level.... or any different to a 200 hr pilot in the right seat of a 200 seat passenger jet?

 

 

[Tomo]

G'day Kiwicrusader!

 

Actually I agree with your sentiments. I'm only a young guy myself, and many people have said I should be an instructor, as I have the 'right' stuff supposedly. Whatever that means! But I haven't gone with it just yet as I don't believe I have enough experience to make an impression on another student (even though I have flown more than 14 types of aircraft, and 60% of that tail dragger). Sure you can teach them to fly a plane, I reckon any pilot could do that, and in my opinion, that's the easy part. It's passing on life saving experience that may one day save that student of yours some major grief that's important. I'm still encountering hair raising moments myself! You are the perfect type of person that needs to be out there teaching up and coming pilots, someone that's had experience, in all things, not just straight and level at altitude.

 

Like yourself, I, in no way want to offend those that think otherwise, but to me I wouldn't want to learn something as dangerous as flying, from someone still figuring it out themselves. You need 100 hours supervised driving to get your drivers license these days...

 

Regarding aircraft that would fit you... I don't really know, I'm sure there's plenty aircraft out there that would. I'm a bit the opposite, 6' for less than half the weight!

 

 

[kiwicrusader]

Thanks Tommo, I know there are plenty of aircraft I could instruct in. Have been one of two in rv6. Have done a fair bit sitting in the back seat of a super cub, should be able to fit in the back seat of a cubcrafters sport cub I would of thought... The problem is I still don't have an answer to my question. Do I need a full FI rating to issue endorsements or is there some other sort of approval I can get based on experience, like a D Cat instructors rating in NZ?

 

Cheers,

 

Kiwi.

 

 

[farri]

Kiwi,

 

The problem is I still don't have an answer to my question. Do I need a full FI rating to issue endorsements or is there some other sort of approval I can get based on experience, like a D Cat instructors rating in NZ?Cheers,

 

Kiwi.

Kiwi, Wouldn`t the RAA operations manager be the best person to answer your question, afterall, unless the system has changed, it`s the ops managers approval you would require.

 

Frank.

 

 

[JimG]

While I agree that 75 hrs PIC does seem a little shy on experience to instruct , I believe a person with the right attitude can do a good job of it.

 

The RAA ops manual sets out a system where by a new instructor can only operate under the direct supervision of a CFI and cannot authorize any student for first solo or subsequent solo, also they are subject to regular check flights with the CFI as well as any student of the new instructor must have a check flight with the CFI at regular intervals . So an instructor until he/she has work up to and passed the criteria to become a senior instructor is very much under the wing of a CFI .

 

I'm a low time pilot (260 hrs) , have an instructor rating and am training students under the watchful eye of my CFI and I feel what we are doing for our students is very much a team effort where I am continuing to learn and passing on to the student the wisdom I've pick up from from the CFI ( 20,000 hr AG pilot) along the way . The CFI is quick to fill in any gaps created from my inexperience so I believe the system works well and we all progress.

 

I've learned that there is a huge difference in how each individual takes in and retains lessons learned on how to fly and this is a big part of the instructor training which in my view is the most difficult part to manage so I'm in no hurry to make it to senior instructor and am happy for the time being to continue learning from the master and therefor giving the students the best training as a team effort.

 

Cheers

 

JimG

 

 

[facthunter]

Jim G has a point with the consideration of having a good CFI and the mentoring role that would involve. An initial instructor in GA or RAAus is quite restricted in what he can do or authorise.

 

It is an ODD feature of Aviation that generally instructors are low hours pilots who go into airlines at the first opportunity. This has to be a questionable outcome. and an undesireable situation. The blind cannot lead the blind.

 

The cause is related to the poor work conditions in the "bottom' sectors of GA, and the "attraction" whether real or imagined of the Airline scene.

 

I have consistently stressed the absolute need to get the best quality instruction. If you get the technique wrong or inadequate in the initial Phase of your flying career there may not be a correction and people can die as a consequence.

 

CASA (or equivalent ) were directly involved in the checking out of candidates when I did it. This gives some certainty of an acceptable standard being maintained. At present in RAAus it would be extremely variable.

 

The CASA "blurb" says correctly that an instructor should be an above average pilot

 

( and certainly should be able to get the plane out of any difficult situation that it might reasonably end up in, (MY words) Any student should be able to "assume' this.

 

It is possible that the growth in the "functionality" of RAAus planes has outstripped the training syllabus. Some of our offerings are more capable of crossing the continent than some GA, and we have downplayed the level of skill and knowledge required to do it well. Nev

 

 

[eightyknots]

Some of our offerings are more capable of crossing the continent than some GA, and we have downplayed the level of skill and knowledge required to do it well. Nev

The problem is, once this 'fact' becomes generally known in government circles, they may even consider moving such higher performance aircraft off the RA-Aus registration and onto the GA registration along with all the restrictions that go along with this. For this reason, RA-Aus needs to be careful about pushing hard for faster, heavier and four seat aircraft.

 

In any event, when you have two systems (such as RA-Aus and GA), there will always be areas of overlap: it is inevitable. This is mainly caused by some GA aircraft, especially some of the lighter ones, underperforming due to its inherent design as well as older technology being used in engines.

 

 

[facthunter]

I've never heard any mention of FOUR seat aircraft for RAAus. The limitation of liability inherent with a pilot and an "informed", passenger would (I think) be more fundamental to our basic aims than any other single factor.

 

The new Recreational GA licence has the same restrictions. TWO persons. This all makes sense. There has to be a trade-off.

 

There are no real "high performance" planes on the register. Most of the FAST small planes in the past. (EAA Racers etc) had Continental 0-200's in them and some had early rotax two -strokes.

 

The low stall speed in the RAAus tends to stop really high speeds being available. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

I dom't knao how many hours my GA instructors had, but they both got jons with the airlines. They were wxcellent instructors, but since then I have come across several older instructors that i have a very low opinion of, one RAA instructor had difficulty seeing where he was going and a habit of letting his left foot cover the students right rudder pedal. It seems to me that enthusiasm is the best thing.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I found that problem when i seeked instruction in GA. I wanted to build experience on the several hundred hours in minimums and i kept finding that the first few instructors had less hours than me and my crosswind landings were better than theirs. I then seeked out instructors that had more hours flying than instructing. Much better. Ended up with several ATPL chief pilot instructors and a twin otter. :)

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Hey Kiwi if you get this sorted out be sure to let us know, I'd love some lessons in tailwheel etc from an experienced Ag pilot.

 

 

[kiwicrusader]

Hey Gnarly,

 

Will do mate.

 

Cheers,

 

Kiwi.

 

 

[turboplanner]

An instructor at around 75 hrs experience?

 

That's pretty much the last straw for RAA with me.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

It wouldn't be so bad if CASA tested student pilots for training to make sure that the student is really competent but they don't.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Sorry to say this but 75 hrs TT to begin to instruct in any capacity is a joke. By all means shadow a good CFI or senior at your school and learn more from their experiences but you need breadth and depth to take on this responsibility, having a CFI back in the hangar is no use when on short final low in a wind sheared PFL that YOU have to get out of while calmly coaching the student and fixing at the same time. I watched this happen in the motorcycle industry when Q RIde came in where instructors who had barely got their opens were teaching new riders . 7 years and many too many fatalities later I attended many "think tanks" on how to fix the problem that shouldn't,t have happened in the first place. Yes their were training standards issues but essentially it was the blind leading the blind.

 

Now I know that this may offend some out there but maintaining and developing training standards is at the core of aviation safety.

 

Build two or three hundred hours at least, and I do mean least, and learn where an aircraft can be taken that it never should and then know what you need to do to get it back and then learn the polish to sell this in the vast amount of styles that the students who sit beside you will need but not know that until years later...

 

Then decide or better let those with this experience choose you.

 

 

[facthunter]

Not that it changes the argument much , but it is IN COMMAND, so the TOTAL will be more than that.

 

This doesn't mean much either as even a structured course over that period may not be enough. (Though it would help). Is command time the best time, anyhow. It used to be the thing in the "old" days but perhaps we can revisit that concept. IF someone set out deliberately to become a good Instructor perhaps exposure to a lot of different instructors and situations , would be more beneficial.( Exposure to a lot of different aircraft types. etc)

 

The Principles and Method of Instruction Course is an insult to anyone who has done a realistic study, and sat a proper examination...As in all situations but particularly with flying, Quality Education will Pay off. . Nev