flying dog Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Folks, I don't want to say too much at this point, but I was wondering if there is a way to look at old "Sydney radar" tracks for not too distant dates? With audio if possible. Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Doubt it.. Is very hard to get hold of that sort of thing...Someone have little brush with the LAW did they??...;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REastwood Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Hi, Have you tried the AirServices WebTrak? it keeps a history of all flights within a CTA area (generally for noise control). In the bottom left corner you can enter a date and time. It's only about a 50Km radius from YSSY but hopefully it will have what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 Thanks, now stupid question: URL? I shall try ITMT, but...... Found it. Alas the tracks stop to the west of Cambelltown. I think I found me, but I dis-appeared and so can't gather evidance/ence. Bugga! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 Slight update: Details: Jab 230 - 1 POB 25 Feb 2012 09:30-ish 10 NM south of YKAT Flying north (340) from Oaks to Katoomba (en-route) 6,500-ish Watching another plane on right below but on "Converging course". Scanning: them, front window. Cycling. Looked out front window: Green blur. Twin engine low wing heading EAST! Probably descending. Seperation now told to be about 600m horizontal 400m vertical. Other plane flew to Camdem. Underpants colour: Take a guess. Na. but it was an eye opener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Sounds a bit close for comfort. What evidence are you looking for? It's class g out there and thus no separation given to vfr aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 When above 5000: I thought it was East Odds + 500 West Evens + 500 It is stange I was talking to Radar and confirming my position - Squark ident (etc) - and they didn't say, "Hey, we see a plane at your 9 O'clock at 6,500 on a converging course. The other plane (at the 3 O'Clock) was BELOW me which was kind of nice. No worries for me anyway, I'm still here. But after said incident I asked Radar and they weren't interested. Ok, I can understand that, but what IS interesting is no one else came back and said, "Sorry! That was us. Hope you are ok." I'm now submitting an incident form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Dog, you said yourself he was descending (probably). He probably didn't see you by the sounds of things. Regardless of weather or not Center (its not called Radar anymore) were confirming your position, there is still no separation requirement from them. Sometimes they will give it anyway, but don't expect it. If you don't mind me asking why were they confirming your position?. Did you request flight following? Ps, tip...Don't put the term '6500 ish' in your report.;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 I was confirming my position because I saw another plane near by and they asked me to skwark ID so they could see me and look for the other plane. I don't expect anything from them. I appreciate where their obligations lie/lye/(how ever it is spelt). I had a transponder and it was on ALT. Though it is both our responsibilities to keep an eye out for each other, from the events which happened: They were not listening to 124.55. The information supplied here is to help ALL people understand what happened and hopfully learn how to avoid it. Thanks, no I won't include the -ish in the report. However, here I am being as honest and open as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 Merve, And others, Irrispective of all the legal stuff, this is my "concern": 1 - I was in G airspace. So it is "free for all" below 5,000 feet. 2 - Above that there are levels at which we should fly. I say should, because I don't want to preach the rules. 3 - I was on 124.55 and had discussed my position, heading and altitude with Centre/Radar. It was "common knowledge" for anyone on that frequency. The other plane at my 3 O'Clock should also have heard my asking and MAYBE piped up and informed me they were not going to get too close. 4 - This "other plane" SHOULD have heard me talking to Centre/Radar and heard my position and realised there was a possible conflict/collision and either: Held their altitude, announced their position so I could avoid them, or descended a bit quicket to pass below me. From what happened they did NONE of these. NONE! They were (probably) on a different frequency, had the radio turned off, or "playing silly buggers" and just doing what they wanted. That is THEIR BUSINESS. However, because of factors controlled by them, I was put in a dangerous situation. I want other people to know of this to learn by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Yes Dog I understand your concerns. however 1 klm of separation is hardly an 'incident'. If we all hit center up everytime we saw another aircraft within 1 klm, it would be a very congested frequency, however you as PIC have that right and your decisions sound solid to me. Pilots not monitoring, or not responding is a part of life unfortunately. And your story does offer lots of 'learny bits'. The biggest message of all is LOOKOUT. You can never rely on anyone else 100%. Radios fail, pilots fail to use them properly. Even when none of this happens, s@#t still can, and does. I had a sea hawk helicopter appear about 50 feet below me on base one day ...INSIDE CTA and under approach control. The contoler (in his words) 'just missed it'.We were close enough to see the shocked look on the winch operators face. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 Yes, LOOK OUT! However, this nearly typifies a big problem. I was LOOKING OUT at this other plane who was also NOT ON FREQUENCY. This is part 1 of a chain of events which nearly lead to a collision. I can't do the maths just now, but me at 110 kts and them at probably more at 90 degrees to me, the closing velocity would be high. 400, 600, right angle triangle.... That would be just over 600 metres seperation. (Thinking of the 4,5,6 rightangle triangle. If you make it 4,6, the other 6 wouldn't be much bigger) At those speeds it wouldn't be that long a time frame to cover. As stated: I'm still alive. This is a lesson for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 mmm, 600 meters is 1800 feet (ish). Hardly a close call. Perhaps both pilots had YOU sighted..;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ossie Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Maybe this scenario has not been considered...... "SYD CTR....." Twin 'ABC' cleared CN RNAV track DCT WC Contact CN TWR 120.1 Traffic in your 2oclock 2miles 6500' unverified.. "TWIN...." Cleared CN RNAV track DCT WC Contact CN TWR 120.1...traffic sighted...'ABC'. TWIN then changes to CN ATIS, prior to calling CN TWR approaching WC. No one interested because TWIN driver and SYD CTR well ahead of the game... Jab driver possibly oblivious to all this, whilst looking at acft below that's no threat, and allowing oneself to be in a position and at an altitude that is likely to conflict with IFR arrivals. Please post up the reply to the incident report..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 That's a very likely scenario in that area. Dog, are you familiar with rnav and other ifr approach points such as wc, wa etc which are all very close to that area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 With the bagging I am getting, I don't think so. Sheesh, it would seem I am at fault. NO I AM AN RAA PILOT. How am I supposed to know all these GA/CPL terms and how they apply to me when flying? (Hands in the air. I give up.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pookemon Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Is "FlightAware" any use? (http://flightaware.com/live/airport/YKAT) - you can get to the history for a specific A/C with a bit of clicking around (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VHEDP) - just change the VHEDP to your rego (not sure if it works for RAA). The idea of "LOOKOUT" is all very well (suggested by motzartmerv) - but if it's an A/C descending onto a high wing A/C (aka Jab) then neither would be able to see each other. However if the separation is 1800ft - then that's not too big of an issue. You can fly closer than that in a busy circuit when someone joins mid-field... My 2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Pook. Its more than a suggestion. Its an absolute necessity. Particularly in an area such as Dog was flying. A major GA route into the western burbs of sydney. Tons of VFR and IFR traffic transitting that area. Dog. Im not saying anyone was in the wrong. The only people that can make that call were you and the other guys flying. As I said before, I reckon your decisions were solid. Im just wondering if it really is a reportable issue. There are a few approach points out on the western side of Camden. WC is approx 14 miles almsot due west of camden. WB is about 15 miles south west. The Altitude for the approach fix at WC is 5400ft, so its easy to see how an aircraft in your area could be descending through your level. With no reply given to you, I think its highly likely that the traffic had you, or at least center were giving you as traffic to the twin (asuming he was IFR). If you hadnt heard of whisky charlie before then your probably not going to know they were talking about you.;) Thats just my opinion. No-ones giving you curry mate..;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pookemon Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I'm aware it's a necessity - however it sounds like in this case both A/C may have been in each other's blind spot. It seems unusual, however, that ATC/Radar wouldn't have alerted Flying Dog to their presence.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I can understand why people would think that. But spend SOme time in the radar room at Sydney and you will see why there is no requirement for them them to give separation or traffic to vfr acft in class g. The paints on the screen are all but uncountable ad often over lap each other. If the twin was IFR then he would have been given traffic. We simply don't have the ability to give traffic to evryone. Cherrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 Maybe this scenario has not been considered......"SYD CTR....." Twin 'ABC' cleared CN RNAV track DCT WC Contact CN TWR 120.1 Traffic in your 2oclock 2miles 6500' unverified.. "TWIN...." Cleared CN RNAV track DCT WC Contact CN TWR 120.1...traffic sighted...'ABC'. TWIN then changes to CN ATIS, prior to calling CN TWR approaching WC. No one interested because TWIN driver and SYD CTR well ahead of the game... Jab driver possibly oblivious to all this, whilst looking at acft below that's no threat, and allowing oneself to be in a position and at an altitude that is likely to conflict with IFR arrivals. Please post up the reply to the incident report..... There are more holes in that than Swiss cheese. Read next post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 Who here has heard of the game which is called Chineese Whispers? It is where someone starts a story and passes it on. As it is passed from person to person each of them embelishes it with their own "spin" of the story. So by the end it hardly resembles what was first said. Ok, final update from me on what happened: I was talking to Sydney about another plane at my 3-4 O'clock. My position was identified. After that and while monitoring the other plane, another (third) plane flew infront of me. All I saw was a flash. A "Blink and you miss it" moment. I again spoke with Sydney and they said they didn't see anything. What was happening: This "third plane" was "visible" to them, but only as a paint. The plane's transponder was NOT in mode D, and the paint was coming and going from the screen. So: I fully understand why they said they didn't see any plane, and I am not upset with them. If the plane is not sending the data, how can I expect the person sitting looking at a screen to know any better. None of this SUPPOSED talking with Sydney, cleared to Camden, and so on. There isn't really any more to say from this end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Dog. Speaking of holes Stories. Now your saying that center had them but no mode Charlie. And in your original account you said separation now told to be about 600m horizontal 400m vertical. Who told you that? If the other guy was mode d then how was this information available? First you said they didn't see anything, then you said they had a paint in mode D???? Swiss cheese mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying dog Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 The information in this post is given on a time line. I stated what I knew. Then as more information came to hand from people, I posted/updated what was known. I can only repeat what information is given to me. If it is right, good. If it is wrong, well, so be it. However, I do not speculate on what happened. The mode - be it C or D - is petty. After the fact, I asked Sydney if there was another plane and they said they didn't see any. That was THEN. This is NOW. Initial inestigation gave me sepeartion data - though not reliable. Further invesigation revealed that there was a plane there but with their transponder turned OFF - or not sending clear data. Subsequently they were not a good paint on the screen. This all seems Deja Vous from the pervious posts. I am not going to elaborate from where I am getting this data. It is beyond the scope of the quesiton and my "concern". Suffice to say I trust it and believe it to be accurate. If you have BETTER information, place it on the table. Until then, to me it is irrifutable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Mate, mode c and d are very different things. One gives info the other doesn't. If no info given then it's not there to be got;) Just make sure you have your facts right before you drop a report with an raa rego attached. Cheers. Andy out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now