It must get easier with time.

[Old Koreelah]

No matter how much time you have in aviation have there are occasions when you have to put every thing you have into the situation that presents itself to you. You never reach a state where you can sit back and relax. Never.. There is always something that will challenge you. Totally and completely Nev

Thanks for this observation, FH. I have sometimes wondered if I really enjoy flying, because while up there I am too preoccupied to really feel the joy of flight. It is only later that I remember with pleasure what I just did.

 

In response to OME's landing issues, the landing phase, and particularly late final, is my favourite part. Does this mean I don't actually like flying and want to get back on the ground, or is skimming the ground the big thrill?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

"Crikey! Long TO run, downhill, and still stuck to the ground...was he carrying a load of bricks?"

 

Those were my thoughts exactly, had to have had full fuel and every seat filled. Those 108 Voyagers are a touch under powered with the Franklins in them...Is it just my imagination or does that wing look like it's been clipped a bit ?....IE: shorter., you'll also notice there's no flap deployed, did he just forget his flaps before takeoff ?

 

................................................Maj...

 

 

[eightyknots]

"Crikey! Long TO run, downhill, and still stuck to the ground...was he carrying a load of bricks?"

Those were my thoughts exactly, had to have had full fuel and every seat filled. Those 108 Voyagers are a touch under powered with the Franklins in them...Is it just my imagination or does that wing look like it's been clipped a bit ?....IE: shorter., you'll also notice there's no flap deployed, did he just forget his flaps before takeoff ?

 

................................................Maj...

 

I was thinking along those lines (not being able to see flaps used). It still has to be one of the craziest take off rolls recorded on film that the POB actually survived. I still can't get over the fact that, to avoid the wings hitting the trees, the pilot had to bank momentarily ...at the edge of the envelope. That bank could have resulted in insufficient lift and a serious crash. That was some close call!

 

(For those reading this for the first time see post #4)

 

 

[Planechaser]

I reckon the worst part of learning to fly is landing. Do you get all tense and sweaty between turning Base and bumping down? I do.

 

 

Old Man Emu

Hi OME,

 

The funny thing to me is, Take off is the really dangerous bit, because if it goes wrong, you are doing the opposite of what you need to do, and your area to do it with is getting shorter, or has gone!

 

I was always ( and if truth be known, I still am a bit. It's hard to shake!) freaking out about my landings, and never fazed about my take offs, and my instructor set about changing that!!

 

We went up, in the Tomahawk, on a hot, gusty, semi-stormy afternoon in Mildura and did circiuts for over an hour, and while take off was hairy, landing was something akin to bull riding!!

 

What it taught me was, the plane will always come down.

 

It can be out of shape, slipping, skidding, bouncing, bucking, floating and all of the above, but when you finally chop power, guess what......it lands.

 

Take off is always full of danger because there is always a point where you are too far in to abort, and not far enough to get back. And it's all well and good to say "Set up the glide, look 30deg either side and and bring it back in," but in my limited experience, the kilometer or two out the end of the runway is never a good spot to put a plane down!

 

Landing, it is all in front of you, and it doesn't have to be pretty. That comes later.

 

All you do is set the plane up, and it lands itself.

 

It's the knowlege of the minor corrections that makes it pretty or not, but like I said, that comes later and is not manditory to getting on the ground.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Thanks for this observation, FH. I have sometimes wondered if I really enjoy flying, because while up there I am too preoccupied to really feel the joy of flight. It is only later that I remember with pleasure what I just did.In response to OME's landing issues, the landing phase, and particularly late final, is my favourite part. Does this mean I don't actually like flying and want to get back on the ground, or is skimming the ground the big thrill?

I suspect this is as individual as each of us.

To me the landing is the end of (a mostly) enjoyable flight. While I do get some personal satisfaction from a good landing in difficult conditions, I don't think about it too much. In particular, I enjoy the realisation that I have improved some aspect of my flying and increased my level of skill. That is probably what led me into formation flying. More than anything else, formation training has increased my overall flying skills enormously.

 

I can enjoy different aspects of each flight, depending on what I have done. I least enjoy those days where you get hit by those sharp sudden bumps, out of the blue, so to speak. Then you think, ah, not so bad, it seems to have settled down to almost hands-off flying and then another sudden bump that puts you 15 or 20 degrees off level or wants to strongly pull you into a steep bank. I find continuous roller coaster style turbulence less unsettling.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

I noticed when taking regular domestic commercial flights a surprising many of them ended in what I would call a hard landing; dump it down and haul on the brakes. Might not have helped my landings much but to know x,000 hour ATPL level pilots are doing these minimal flare drops onto the tarmac soothes the ego somewhat. Yes I understand in certain weather conditions it helps to plant it a little firmly but I am referring to calm conditions. Maybe generating some work for their LAME buddies...

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I find it encouraging when you are on RPT and the pilot slams it onto the deck.

 

 

[Planechaser]

I find it encouraging when you are on RPT and the pilot slams it onto the deck.

It brings to mind the old aviation joke of the grandmother who approches the Captain while disembarking the plane after a hard landing and asks

 

"Did we land, or were we shot down?!"

 

 

 

[farri]

Wouldn`t it be more beneficial if the words, hard, harder, easy, easier, were taken out of the vocabulary and the mind, when learning a task?

 

When learning a task, be it taking off or landing an aircraft, playing a guitar, learning to ride a motorbike, horse or any other of the many tasks we are required to do, there realy is no easy or hard thing to do, there is only the particular task to be learnt.

 

Hard and easy are relative and to define these terms, they need to be measured against something else, therefore, who or what do we measure them against. They also tend to create a negative mindset.

 

A task that one person considers to be extremely hard, might be extremely easy to someone else.

 

When we say, don`t wory, it does becomes easier,what we are realy saying is, don`t wory, it became easier for me, therefore, it should become easier for you.

 

Frank.

 

Ps, Just my opinion.

 

 

[facthunter]

The take-off is critical at times. Particularly if you have an engine failure at the worst time or blow a tyre at high speed etc. You may have an obstacle to clear, on a hot day or a high altitude strip. The more engines you have the more chance that one of them will fail. The engine is working it's hardest on take off. Some can only maintain T/O power for 5 minutes max.

 

Anyone can do an ordinary landing occasionally, but it is still controlled I would always prefer to see a pilot doing well controlled even if a little rough, landings than pulling off a few "squeekers" and then doing something totally scary, that is not handled well. Consistency is worth something.

 

You get the results you deserve with landings. The more effort and good judgement you put in, the better and safer they will be. Analyse them all so that you can work out what was good and what went wrong.

 

If you have plenty of experience but are having a bad patch, go with an insructor who should be able to find what you are doing wrong, most likely. I don't see the comparison with cars to be very valid.The grip of your tyres has all to do with the direction you go, in a car.

 

. The air changes, moves,. You could end upside down (in wake turbulence) and just fly out of it if you know what you are doing You are working in 3 dimensions and depending on what phase of the flight you are in, you have to have the right airspeed. . Speed control is basic to flying. In a car it requires no judgement. You can travel at a snails pace or just press the throttle . You are in contact with something solid that you travel on, in a car. Skill is required to do it well as in all things, but the environment is totally different in a plane.

 

You react with the air, and are constantly adjusting attitude and power to stay on that highway in the sky. You don't drive a plane, you "fly" it. Nev

 

 

[bones]

When i get a student to about the 10-12hrs mark it has happened to everyone, and its that they "hit the wall" i call it, they actually go backwards for a couple of hrs, and i cant explain it except that i think the student know he/she nearly got it, and is just trying to hard, and a mental over load happens.

 

Frustrating as all hell sitting there waiting for a round out/ or the hold it off and wait before the flair/ flair,,,, and nothing happens. All the things they were doing a couple of hrs before.

 

i had a student just very recently who was about to go solo the next morning(he did not know it yet) on his last hr of the day started flairing at 15' , all i did was took over flew a circuit for him landed at the hangar, shut down and looked at him and said i think you had enough for today ayy.

 

the next morning 2 of 1/2hr flights were perfect, it was the last 15-20 mins that got him overloaded, so did a check flight with him and he soloed that day, not the prettiest/perfect take off or landing but very safe and under control. he actually did about 1.25 hrs the first solo flight, but he only did 2 appraoches, 1 a low level fly along the strip next he landed. he has since racked up about 30hrs solo in 4 weeks and loving every minute.

 

He was in his 60's and had other issues, that took a lot of his confidence away, once i proved to him he could do it he is fine.

 

Some times a full hr lesson is just too much for some people towards the end i have found.

 

 

[old man emu]

Gee these threads can get all deep and meaningful, real quick.

 

I wasn't intending for this to get into a discussion of how to teach people to fly.

 

It was just one of those daydream thoughts you might have on a pleasant summer afternoon when you are sitting in the shade of a tree, with your back to the trunk, watching the comings and goings of the airplanes at your local airfield.

 

I reckon the worst part of learning to fly is landing. Do you get all tense and sweaty between turning Base and bumping down? I do. But it must get easier sometime, surely.I'm sure that when one passes that point, flying becomes truly recreational.

Old Man Emu

 

 

[Tomo]

These days you do an hour lesson on effects of controls, hr of straight and level, climbing descending turns etc... back in the day I reckon it would have been the first hour covering all those, and probably doing loops on the second lesson. Then landings for the rest of the time. Once you could land it without breaking something...

 

They did operate mostly off a big field too didn't they, so didn't really have to fight mad crosswinds or follow a white line... and it was probably grass too which makes all landings a lot more forgiving.

 

Just me thinking of course...

 

 

[farri]

You don't drive a plane, you "fly" it. Nev

Absolutely!...To "fly" the aircraft though, the pilot must first understand the behavior and flight characteristics of the aircraft as it travels through the air mass and also what the air mass is likely to do next, to the aircraft.

 

A feel for what the aircraft is doing ( Seat of the pants flying or becoming one with the aircraft, which ever you prefer ), and what it will do next is required before the correct amount of control input can be applied.

 

If a feel for what the aircraft is doing and what it is likely to do next, is not developed, then there will be a tendency to continuously over control or under controll and this is not, "Flying" the aircraft. It also applies to take-off and landing.

 

Frank.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Another thing that hasnt been mentioned, is a students back ground. Generally Skid steer operators/ excavator operators find learning to fly easier than other occupations.It has do with the many hours of experience, using their hands and feet to operate the machine. I remember being at Skyfox flight training one day back in the nineties. A pilot was booked in for his BFR.He hadnt flown any aircraft for over year JM said, he will be good going by passed experiences.John taught him to fly.Anyway I watched the final part of the BFR eg- Glide approach, EFATO etc etc.This guy flew the Skyfox Tailwheel 55-757 as if he flew it yesterday.He gently kissed the ground on landings. I dont remember his name.But I know of the bad reputation of TW skyfoxes, some warranted some not.

 

 

[biggles]

Gidday OME ,

 

 

A lot of good stuff here from Frank ,Nev, Maj. and others . I was led to believe that ............... " there were three important considerations for a good landing , but know-one knew what they were " !

 

Wishing you continued success ,

 

Bob

 

 

[farri]

It has do with the many hours of experience, using their hands and feet to operate the machine.

I`ve just got back from a bit of flying and what do I find ? At last, someone else who has realised it. ....Onya Dazza!

 

Before I started flying, I had driven a fair bit of machinery that required hand and foot coordination... One was a Toft full stick sugar cane loader that had a pedal for each foot, for slewing the cane grab boom and the other was a large NCK excavator that also had foot pedals, but this machine had four pedals to work in coordination with the hand levers so I got plenty of experience in working both feet and hands together. I still have a small Komatsu PC40 excavator,which I use here at home.

 

I found learning to handle the taildrager a very, very, small challenge ( I`m not bragging, just stating a fact ) and I`ve always put it down to the hand and foot cordination that I learnt by driving the machinery that I did.

 

Frank.

 

 

[farri]

A lot of good stuff here from Frank ,Nev, Maj. and others . ! Bob

That`s very nice of you Bob, thank you and I appreciate it.

 

Cheers, and all the best.

 

Frank.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I`ve just got back from a bit of flying and what do I find ? At last, someone else who has realised it. ....Onya Dazza!Before I started flying, I had driven a fair bit of machinery that required hand and foot coordination... One was a Toft full stick sugar cane loader that had a pedal for each foot, for slewing the cane grab boom and the other was a large NCK excavator that also had foot pedals, but this machine had four pedals to work in coordination with the hand levers so I got plenty of experience in working both feet and hands together. I still have a small Komatsu PC40 excavator,which I use here at home.

 

I found learning to handle the taildrager a very, very, small challenge ( I`m not bragging, just stating a fact ) and I`ve always put it down to the hand and foot cordination that I learnt by driving the machinery that I did.

 

Frank.

Funny you have typed this Frank.When I had a 8 year break.I had Greg Neale as my Instructor.After I took off and flew around.He said to me, How long since you flew a plane? I said 8 years, I already told him that but he was at the head scratching stage, like WTF this dude flies like a guy who had flown yesterday..He said .You fly fine.He then said, do you operate machinery. Yes , I own a Micro excavator (about a 150 hours in excavators).He said that is probably why you fly so well, it has keep you in check with hands eye co-ordination etc..You have the feel for it.

Anyway we talked about it.He had had many students who have picked up the hands on easily from being operators of machinery.Drifters solo in 7 or 8 hours etc.But he has also had a driller try and kill him on approach.They put it down to the way the guy spend hours and hours with his hand on a lever which controlled the drill bit presure.(he lost me by this stage). Basicaly the guy flew well above average everywhere apart from the flaring stage. He didnt want to flair.lol

 

 

[Yenn]

Landings will get easier, but then you start to worry more about the take offs. I am usually quite relaxed with landings, but I never relax with the take off. Once you have experienced an engine failure at take off you will forever be thinking about the next one.

 

 

[ayavner]

Yeah, I get pretty nervous about take-offs for some reason - FI is always shouting "right rudder, right rudder", which I do, but seem to get way the hell off centreline that way but he doesn't want me to use left rudder to correct it. So I end up arcing out of the runway rather than going straight.

 

Maybe I am overthinking it, or trying to compare it to simplified illustrations in the books, but I *thought* you were supposed to make as straight a line as you could before commencing climbing turn at 500'.

 

On landings, I feel pretty good about them such as it is, I feel like i have a pretty good feel for the approach. What FI wants me to do is get it close and fly straight and level and he says to let it settle in before pulling back, but I am afraid I haven't developed a feel for that yet. Not sure what transition I am looking for - I certainly am not watching the altimeter at that point...

 

This is a great thread - thanks OME for starting it up! As you said, probably got a bit more philosophical than you intended, but lots of people (myself included) have benefited.