Oksinay Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 During a recent flight (pre test for Nav endorsement) my instructor pulled the fuse for the flaps as I was setting up on base. I elected to depart the circuit and go the dead side to work out the problem, and then re-enter the circut mid field crosswind. Should I have continued to attempt the landing flapless and then do a normal go around if necessary? Or was leaving the circuit to identify the problem and correct it the correct decision?
RKW Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 Hi Oksinay, a flapless landing is the go. Lower the nose a little to increase your approach speed a little and land as you otherwise would. Flapless landings should be practised regularly as it is not uncommon to have electric flaps fail. Don't get hung-up on trying to fix the problem. Better to resolve electrical problems on the ground rather than up top. Regards, Bob
Guest SAJabiruflyer Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 During a recent flight (pre test for Nav endorsement) my instructor pulled the fuse for the flaps as I was setting up on base. I elected to depart the circuit and go the dead side to work out the problem, and then re-enter the circut mid field crosswind.Should I have continued to attempt the landing flapless and then do a normal go around if necessary? Or was leaving the circuit to identify the problem and correct it the correct decision? I am not an instructor, so take my comments as is. I think you did the right thing. Look at it this way.. you are on base, pretty soon turning onto final, where you already want the a/c to be setup for landing, and your "mindset" is thus configured for a standard landing. All of a sudden there is a problem (in this case, caused by the instructor disabling flaps). This adds to your stress levels and whilst a little bit of stress is a good thing, too much can lead to mistakes. So you've identified there is a problem, you've realised the plane is not going to fall out of the sky, and you gained yourself time and altitude to troubleshoot, thus allowing your MIND to be prepared for the eventual landing, which then becomes SAFER because you are PREPARED. My thoughts only, instructors will likely have a better / more valuable input into this scenario
rocket1172 Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 Nothing wrong with your actions mate, I would have done the same thing. If you go out of the circuit, and sort the problem out, and find that just the fuse has popped, then its a simple solution to a problem that can upset your frame of mind at anytime. RKW is correct in one sense, flapless landings should be experienced, which after some problem solving, you might have to do. But as an ex GA pilot, I won't be landing after my landing gear circuit breaker pops (electrical problem)......not after exiting the circuit and trying to sort the problem out!!
Tomo Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 Should I have continued to attempt the landing flapless and then do a normal go around if necessary? Or was leaving the circuit to identify the problem and correct it the correct decision? I'm also no instructor... What did your instructor think of your actions? That's who I would initially confer with... but I agree with the others above, there are times when you need to go out and find the problem. I've had many a CFI pull the fuse on me on various things... I usually see them do it, or figure the problem fairly quick, so usually ask do you want a flapless landing, or manual extension? or whatever... So what I'm getting at is, do you think the instructor was wanting you to find the problem, and fix it. Or to land the aircraft in it's current situation, and to handle the added challenge in the circuit? Or in the case of a simulated gear failure... you obviously don't continue there, and you can tell the problem is the power supply if he pulls it... so the method there is to manually get the gear down. Going around, and or moving away like you did to sort it out. Just my thoughts... 1
Planechaser Posted March 12, 2012 Posted March 12, 2012 I would have gone to the dead side, to make sure everything else was ok for landing. If I knew the instructor had pullled the flap fuse, then flapless landing, no drama. But I don't think the instructor was after just a flapless landing. This is a simulated situation. In the real world you would have gone for flaps and found none. There is no way I would just go " Oh well, must be the fuse" and keep lined up in that situation! In the first place, how will you check the fuse as you are turning from base to final, calling and watching the rest of the plane? What other fuses may have popped?? I am a low hour( 450 ish) non instructor, but I have had my share of machinery that goes wrong at the vital time! Aircraft, for all the maintenance, are no different.
James Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 I remember being in a similar situation, but in this instance the fan up the front decided to stop at the same time. All I could do was go in HOT maintain air speed flaps or no flaps. Intreresting flight, it was the first time my wife had seen the Barossa Valley from the air, in a brand new J160. What an end to the day. 1
Wayne T Mathews Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 Hhmmm, this one could get real interesting... Back in the 70s, when as a young man I first started flying proffessionally, my Dad gave me some advice that has stood me in good stead over the decades, and I'll pass it on here. Aircraft are not designed to be on the ground. They're designed to be in the air. So if you have a problem with your aircraft while you're airborne, do not rush to put it on the ground. In the vast majority of instances it will be much better to get the aircraft into a holding pattern that is clear of other aircraft and terrain, and then work out what your problem is and what you can do to compensate/correct it. The old chant, "Aviate, navigate, communicate," pretty well sums it up... 2
Oksinay Posted March 13, 2012 Author Posted March 13, 2012 Thanks people. My instructor felt that I had done the right thing simply because it was thought out and rational. He would also have accepted the landing being completed. FYI, he did not allow me to replace the fuse and I rejoined midfield crosswind for a normal flapless landing - which to my surprise was a "greaser". 1
Tomo Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 Flapless landings in certain aircraft are actually easier... 1
Guernsey Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 Flapless landings in certain aircraft are actually easier... I agree there Tomo, you are less affected by gusts and you float longer which often gives you more time to get the flare and hold-off just right before the aircraft settles. Alan.
Wayne T Mathews Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 Flapless landings in certain aircraft are actually easier... And in some, eg the Cub, they're mandatory... 1
Tomo Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 I agree there Tomo, you are less affected by gusts and you float longer which often gives you more time to get the flare and hold-off just right before the aircraft settles.Alan. On a hot day out west landing on black tarmac it's a night mare though!! Fullest flap (most drag) just to settle it down on the ground. (hot air rising off the ground) 1
Guernsey Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 On a hot day out west landing on black tarmac it's a night mare though!! Fullest flap (most drag) just to settle it down on the ground. (hot air rising off the ground) Flying in thermals two feet above the ground, Fantastic!!
James Posted March 13, 2012 Posted March 13, 2012 Like Wayne said about flapless landings being mandatory in the Cub, same goes for the Skyfox, I think some of my better landing in a Jab have also been flapless.
facthunter Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 The only time you should really expedite getting back on the ground is when you have an uncontrollable fire. If there are no other circumstances, (traffic, end of daylight, low fuel) you would be better to try and sort out the problem. IF the flaps are electric, the first step would be to check the lever, (that it is fully detented) and the circuit breaker would be the next item IF you persisted with the landing, flapless, and had a brake fire or over ran the runway, and there were other better options you could be justifiably criticised for not considering the other options. NEVER rush into something, without giving it some thought,(when you have time). If you had just pressed on with the approach and landing, even if you pulled it off nicely, criticism would still be valid. Nev 2
Bandit12 Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 I'm also no instructor...so usually ask do you want a flawless landing, or manual extension? or whatever... How I wish I could ask my instructor if they wanted a flawless landing 3
Tomo Posted March 14, 2012 Posted March 14, 2012 How I wish I could ask my instructor if they wanted a flawless landing You must be an english teacher...!!! Didn't notice the mistake till you pointed that out! 3
Bandit12 Posted March 15, 2012 Posted March 15, 2012 Tomo, if I was sitting in the right hand seat and you said to me "Do you want a flawless landing?", I would presume you were serious With your track record, no one would be surprised!
Ryanm Posted March 17, 2012 Posted March 17, 2012 I believe you made the right decision by going around. If you have planned on using flap, and the flap fails; the approach is no longer stable (an unplanned/anticipated event has occurred) so a missed approach would be a good idea. Depends how technical you wish to get, but what would happen if you continued the approach and in the flare the flaps deployed? Being electrical almost anything is possible. Not just electrical but pretty much any system on the aircraft. As others have said, it’s best to keep the plane flying. Go to the dead side, enter the hold... doesn’t matter. Just don’t rush to get it on the ground unless it’s a failure that requires an immediate return. 2
sfGnome Posted March 18, 2012 Posted March 18, 2012 How I wish I could ask my instructor if they wanted a flawless landing My instructor asked for flawless landings all the time - he just didn't get 'em too often, that's all. 2
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