Where to start

[Guest flying replicas]

hi there,

 

I'm looking at building my own plane, and am doing it from scratch. I want to build a small scale warbird, and as such am curious to know if anyone knows an easy way to work out the scaling. I am aware that the wings will be a lil out of scale, and also after i have my plans done, where should i start??

 

I want to build it out of fibreglass, and am planning on using a reneisis 13b rotary in it possibly turboed... just wondering if anyone could help on just getting my plans together... i have the original plans and can go off them, but obviously need to make them smaller

 

 

[pylon500]

Where to start indeed!

 

Choosing an engine is as good a start point as any.

 

A 13B rotary will give you an engine weighing around 130kg and producing about 160 usable horse power through a reduction drive system while chewing enormous amounts of fuel and making LOTS of noise.

 

Sorry about that!

 

I never believe the numbers you read in the sales brochures about power output, weight and the RPM it's all supposed to happen at.

 

While a 13B may be able to run at 8,500 rpm and dyno to 220 hp, running an engine full time like this wont last.

 

More typical figures would be like 5,500 rpm continuous for around the 160 hp mentioned above.

 

Have a look at; Mazda for Aircraft.

 

Next, have you chosen any particular aircraft you want to scale?

 

Don't be afraid to scale up bigger than you initially thought.

 

There are designs and plans out there for numerous scale warbirds but the better flying ones are the ones built more around the 3/4 scale as opposed to those built to 1/2 scale.

 

The reason for this is that slightly larger structures can be built for around the same weight simply because the thicker bits (wings etc) can be made with lighter materials.

 

There is a balancing act required around the performance you want from the aircraft compared to the strength (read- 'weight') needed to match that performance.

 

There are some good examples out there....

 

The Loehle 5151

 

Empty=232kg Gross=401kg Stall=28kts VNE=87kts Power=65hp

 

Titan 51 Mustang

 

empty=385kg Gross=599kg Stall=34kts VNE=171kts Power=100hp

 

W.A.R. Mustang

 

Empty=276kg Gross=412kg Stall=56kts VNE=143kts Power=140hp

 

F.E.W. Mustang

 

Empty=816kg Gross=1130kg Stall=53kts VNE=295kts Power=400hp

 

Sterart Mustang

 

Empty=1088kg Gross=1587kg Stall=64kt VNE=304+kt Power=600hp

 

Thunder Mustang

 

Empty=997kg Gross=1451kg Stall=59kts VNE=439kts power=640hp

 

The smallest of these aircraft is the W.A.R. Mustang, it is middle range on power requirment yet the similar weight to the low powered machine?

 

The next one up in size is the F.E.W Mustang, which by it's numbers is a bit of a heavy-weight and made of composite.

 

The Thunder Mustang is a one to one scale, and yet the lightest two Mustangs are only a bit smaller!

 

All these Mustang are available as two seaters except the 65hp Loehle which is all wood and much slower than all the others, sort of a sheep in wolf's clothing.

 

From an ultralight point of view, the Titan 51 is best suited to us and is basically all metal.

 

Sorry if I sound like I'm stepping on your plans, quite the contrary.

 

I'm willing to help (technically) anybody that wants to create something for themselves, I'm just trying to help them avoid making all the usual beginner mistakes.

 

Arthur.

 

ps. If some of this is a bit garbled, it' sbecause I keep doing this sort of thing at MIDNIGHT!

 

 

[Guest flying replicas]

I thankyou very much for all the help that you are giving me, and for all the information, i appreciate it, and will take it al on board.

 

I am looking at building a corsair, so i think i have my work cut out for me, and i would like to build out of composites, unless you working with metal is easier or lighter.

 

The rotary that was used in the cobra at natfly was what i was wanting to use in my plane.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

G'day FP, I'm at pretty much the same stage that you. I'd like a replica war plane but as you say, where do you start with the scaling. I'd like a Westland Wyvern, something totally different from the usual warbirds and a plane that isn't known by most people. It was initially designed for the British navy, The RAF trialed it but decided to push on with jets. It eventually saw limited service with the navy and was attributed the honour of being the first piston engined aircraft to shoot down a jet over Korea if memory serves me correctly. It later received a Turbine engine but was superceded by the Seafury. The main prblem with the Wyvern was the contra-rotating prop's gearbox. Only one remains today.

 

All that aside, Thanks to Aurthur for your report, very informative. Problem with any of them is probably the cost of the plans, and of course, most are metal, not my favorite build medium. As for engines, anything that is only aircooled and simple the maintain. Conta props? wouldn't that be something if it could be done.

 

Keep the dream alive lads, and safe flying. Doug

 

 

 

[Guest flying replicas]

Hi desk pilot, its good to see someone else who is alive and well and enjoys the older war birds!! I too usually like the different or strange shapes, i hadn't heard of the plane you were looking at, but i like it!!

 

I also wouldn't mind i think its called a cessna bird dog, not certain which one it was, but actually saw one fly over narramine while i was there, would be nice, has a push and pull engine with a twin boom, looked nice....

 

Love to see an ultra light war bird fly in one day!!

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I think you mean the Cessna Skymaster http://www.warbirdalley.com/o2.htm. The Bird dog is a single engine taildragger

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Admin]

There is a guy at Shepparton, Jabiru Joe, who has a spitfire replica - perhaps give Shepp a ring (refer to the club pages on this site) and see if you can get his phone number - he may be able to help you - just a thought!

 

 

[Guest flying replicas]

Thats the one i was thinking of... it was in a movie called bird dog, and thats why i keep getting confused with that aircraft!!!

 

 

[pylon500]

Interesting Wyvern picture, being the RR Eagle piston powered model.

 

More of these were built than I thought before converting to turboprop.

 

Cessna Skymaster, or C-337, is the civilian version of the Cessna 0-2, which replaced the Cessna 0-1 Bird-Dog, previously designated L-19, or as the C-305 for civilian use.

 

There's some good flying sequences of a Cessna 0-2 in the movie Bat 21.

 

My Stollite was some what inspired by the 0-1 Bird-Dog.

 

So you want to build a Corsair?

 

Nothing like leaping in the deep end!!

 

Have a look at the WAR Corsair page and read careefully the details about keeping them light so that they will still fly.

 

These things are very small, if you're over 5'10", they can be a bit of a squeeze.

 

Have a friend who made a small start on building an all metal version with eyes on a Subaru motor.

 

Really wanted to be able to afford a Rotec radial to put in it, but has got married and is selling the project.

 

Did see a WAR F4-U at Oshkosh back in '02, lots of work...

 

Arthur.

 

 

 

[Guest brentc]

The Mike Sullivan Spitfire at Narromine this year featured an Isuzu / Holden 3.6 litre 360bhp supercharged all alloy engine! It sounded quite good, but no Merlin or similar big beast. The engine is out of the Holden Rodeo, converted for the UK market with twin ignitions. There's one at Tyabb down here too at around 200 HP in standard format with a belt drive if my memory serves me correctly.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Authur, there are very few photos available of Wyverns on the net, particularly the later ones. If you can guide me to further info, I'd appreciate it. Do you think it would scale nicely? If so, where do I start. I can't even find a decent set of 3D drawings. I know there are plastic models on the market, perhaps that's a good place. Be better still if a balsa model was available.

 

Have you ever thought of designing contra-props. I'm thinking on the lines of belt driven reduction gears fed via a centrifugal clutch to avoid high start up torgue requirements and also to isolate the props from the sudden engine stop on shut down. Would also need prop breaking of some kind I think. An all metal gearbox with planetry gears etc. would be way to heavy. Any thoughts?

 

Doug

 

Brentc, we've got a Spitfire with an Isuzy motor here at Murray Bridge. I can't remember the guys name who built it. I'll post some piccies when I find out why they won't upload.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Oh, and before I get a load of " you can't do that, it's against the single engine, single prop rule of RA-Aus', I know. But I believe that rule was written to prevent normal twin engine setups and the problems of assymetric power settings and the danger thereof. Contra-props eliminate power torgue and gyro effects and could be argued (with CASA) that it is therefore safer than a single prop.

 

 

[pylon500]

could be argued (with CASA)

And so could the idea of a centre line push-pull twin like the C-337 (one was being built at Holbrook many years ago) but you know beaurecrats...

Looking for Wyverns, try;

 

Simple three view and text

 

or;

 

3 View

 

From here;R/C Model site

 

This Book may have some plans!

 

As for contra-rotating props, I think I'd only do it with twin engines.

 

Arthur.

 

 

[Guest RFGT40]

The Spitfire hangared at Murray Bridge and mentioned in a post above is owned and was built by Roger Stokes. It was awarded the Sport Aircraft Club of SA Inc. Aircraft of the year for 2006 and has been demonstrated at several SA airshows.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Spitfires

 

Thanks Robert,here are some piccies taken during the build process. Now, who is the visitor that flew in to give encouragment?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Aurthur, you're on the ball again, Cheers. Don't know about the twin engine idea even though it's been proven to work. There's heck of a weight penalty involved and we don't have the 700kg limit yet

 

Now this is my baby, who would not want to tool about in that. Cheers

 

 

 

[Guest flying replicas]

Wow miss a few days and look what happens!!

 

I thankyou all for your ideas!! I'm wanting to still build in fibreglass as it i think it will help in keeping the weight down...

 

I should probably go and observe part of the building process of one of these planes so thati have a more acurate idea of what is involved..

 

 

[dreemhi]

Just looking at those Spitfire pics has me drooling, maybe one day.

 

Meanwhile getting back to composite Corsairs try this link,http://warreplica.homestead.com/Corsair.html.

 

David

 

 

[Student Pilot]

One or seventeen years ago there were some blokes including George Markey who building a glass Spitfire. It was being built in the Bankstown area, I saw a fuselage plug that was about 7/8th full size. Whatever happened to that project?

 

 

[Ultralights]

Whatever happened to the replica BF 109 at narromine a few yrs back??

 

 

[pylon500]

There was actually two replica Me109's floating around once, one was built by Willy Andiel, mainly out of glass;

 

[ATTACH]1954[/ATTACH]

 

This was sold, and I assume it's still out there somewhere?

 

The other was built by Nestor Slepcev from a light twin tail plane.

 

This was all metal, fairly fast and a bit tricky from what I've heard.

 

No idea what ever happened to it, there was a picture of it in an old issue of Pacific Flyer.

 

Will try to find and scan later...

 

As for the glass Spitfire, this was being done by Scott Winton for George Markey at the Sapphire factory.

 

Did I take any photo's of that?.....:;)4:

 

Was initially going to be powered by a Rotax 582, but George then decided he could put a small V-8 in it.

 

I think the moulds are still out there somewhere, I tried to buy them off George, but he wanted more than I could afford.

 

Arthur.

 

 

 

[Guest flying replicas]

I'm getting all excited bout this project now!!

 

I was also thinking of doing a bf 109 after my corsair.

 

I would like to end up with a few old war bird replicas.....

 

don't know why but i just love them and wouldn't mind having a few out there that i could fly round.

 

I guess i'd like to know if there is an advantage to building in glass or metal? Just started thinking bout it now, i was thinking glass, simply cos i don't like the idea of pulling so many rivets, and i have friends who know bout glass, but just curious bout the metal side of things....

 

I was just wondering if anyone knows bout the rotec radial engine, was thinking of using it instead of the rotary, but stil think the rotary wil be a very nice engine for my plane... sorry Arthur i love my rotaries!!

 

 

[nomis]

Deskpilot,

 

Don't know if he is still with us but there was a wyvern pilot based at Merimbula in the Nineties. Don was a Kiwi, flew Tempests during the war, test flew after mainly with Bristol and ended up a Classic Jumbo skipper with Singapore. He was semi retired, fishspotting and flying joyrides in a cessna in 95. Full of great stories. Can't remember his surname. Wall full of photos one of which was him in the wyvern. Bristol joined with Armstrong Siddeley which made the Python turboprop engine that powered some of the aircraft. Think that was how he came to fly it. If he is still around he would prob have the infomation you require.

 

Myself, I am going to build a WAR FW190. Last year on a Frankfurt trip a mate and I drove 3.5 hrs down to the FlugWerks factory where they are building real/replica 190's. Fantastic, seemed very friendly. Only the 600,000 odd euros stopped me buying one.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Hi Nomis (No missus???;-)

 

Thanks for the heads up, I'll try to locate him. There's very little on the web re the Wyvern and short of revisiting the UK to see the real thing..........

 

Safe flying Doug

 

 

[Guest Crash Lander]

Hi Nomis (No missus???;-)

Nope. Have a go at reversing it.;)