Willborne Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Is it possible to recover from a flat spin in an RA aircraft?
Tomo Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 I'm no expert, but it would depend highly on what type of aircraft I would think! We aren't allowed to Spin RAA aircraft, so intentionally, it's a no go zone!
Ultralights Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 yes, with the right training.. but not many, if any RAaus rego aircraft are not approved for spins... oh, and get the right training.. I'm just about to begin Aerobatic training with red Baron.
Bandit12 Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 The answer is - maybe yes and no. If you have the skills, if the aircraft itself can get into a flat spin, and if the aircraft is able to recover, and if the aircraft is strong enough not to fall apart.....then yes! That sort of thing is something to go and get proper instruction in a GA aerobatic aircraft to eperience. You are unlikely to end up in a flat spin unless by purpose (ie training or competition) or you have seriously done most of the spin recovery actions wrong (added power, held opposite aileron etc).
farri Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Is it possible to recover from a flat spin in an RA aircraft? Forgetting about the pilot!.. Can that question be answered correctly without knowing the type of aircraft? Happened a long time ago but I remember the case of an experienced CFI in the Townsville area, getting into a flat spin in a GoldWing, at around 2500 feet... Couldn`t get it out... Hit the ground fairly hard... Survived but was injured. Frank.
motzartmerv Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Thats an odd question.. Im no aerodynamacist, but ive never come across any data to suggest that the numbers painted on the tail effect its ability or inability to recover from a flat spin... 4
Guest extralite Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Not sure many Rec aircraft would spin at all without the input of full pro-spin controls? Generally not much weight at wingtips, large vertical fins etc..haven't checked but surely hands off they would all pop out of a spin within a couple of rotations?
farri Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Someone please correct me if I`m wrong! If the aircraft is correctly ballanced, in a stall, it should drop the nose by itself. The aircraft shouldn`t get into a flat spin unless the centre of gravity ( CoG ) is so far back that the aircraft won`t drop the nose. In my Drifter I can stall it, hold the stick all the way back and it will drop the nose! I can apply full power, bring the nose up sharply and just as the AC is approaching the stall, simultaneously, pull the power right off and let the stick go and it will drop the nose and recover. Frank. Ps, I`m not suggesting that anyone go and do this.
djpacro Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Good comments by others here. .. I'm just about to begin Aerobatic training with red Baron.. Enjoy! ... You are unlikely to end up in a flat spin unless by purpose .... or you have seriously done most of the spin recovery actions wrong ....... or you are in one of the aeroplane types that, once a spin has commenced, will transition to a flat spin by itself - expect to be unable to recover. Is it possible to recover from a flat spin in an ..... aircraft? If the type is approved for intentional spinning the answer should be "yes" - if the type is not approved for intentional spinning the answer may be "no".
David Isaac Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Good answer Uncle Dave. LOL. I don't know how many registered RAA aircraft are type approved for spinning ... the J3 Cub is type approved for spinning when GA registered, but you are not permitted to spin it in RAA guise. I note the Cessna 162 Skycatcher is NOT approved for spinning which some what surprised me given the extensive (and expensive) spin certification that Cessna did ... they wrote off two Skycatchers that would NOT recover from a certain spin mode. They allegedly fixed the problem, but don't allow intentional spinning which is a significant departure from convention in Cessna trainers. If you want to go spin, and I highly recommend it, do it with proper aero training in an aero GA aircarft. 1
ayavner Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Timely topic, I was just thinking about this. Right after stalls in my BAK book is Spins.. a lesson we'll have to skip since we can't do them in RAA. But i have watched a few videos on Youtube and read as much as I can, and can't help thinking that it is something important I should really experience - even if I never unintentionally spin, its got to be good to know how to get out of it, and it could only add to ones confidence moving in 3 dimensions to experience that... Think I might see if i can get a GA lesson on it some day, after I get my cert...
fly_tornado Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 RAA allows you to do an incipient spin, which is a 1/4? turn. Spins won't kill you, but lack of training about them will.
winsor68 Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Think I might see if i can get a GA lesson on it some day, after I get my cert... Try a Gliding Club or School... most sailplanes are fairly aerobatic.
farri Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Timely topic, I was just thinking about this. Right after stalls in my BAK book is Spins.. a lesson we'll have to skip since we can't do them in RAA. ... You certainly should not skip the lesson and it certainly is the responsibility of your RAA instructor to teach you about the cause and the recovery of the Spin and Spiral Dive. Though at this point in time, it is not allowed to do spins and spiral dives in RAA aircraft, your instructor has the responsibility to make certain that you know the theory. It`s up to you whether you choose to go to a GA school and experience it in an approved aircraft. Frank.
ayavner Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Hoping to do stalls this weekend, I'll bring it up. I've done as much reading as I can on it (precisely because I don't want to just gloss over it) but was under the assumption that we couldn't do the exercises because the Jab says spins prohibited? Anyway, good point Frank, will see what FI says.
motzartmerv Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Though at this point in time, it is not allowed to do spins and spiral dives in RAA aircraft, Frank. Where's the rule regarding spiral dives? We teach it to all our students. 1
farri Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Where's the rule regarding spiral dives? We teach it to all our students. If you are teaching spiral dives, then they must be pretty tame spiral dives, if you are remaining legal and keeping the angle of bank under 60 degrees. To me, that`s not a spiral dive. Frank.
motzartmerv Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 I beg to differ. A spiral dive with 60 deg AOB is plenty to teach the recovery procedure. cheers 1
farri Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 I beg to differ. A spiral dive with 60 deg AOB is plenty to teach the recovery procedure. cheers Yes! and I would agree with you on that, but it is not a spiral dive and what I specificallly said was " Though at this point in time, it is not allowed to do spins and spiral dives in RAA aircraft ". Cheers, Frank.
David Isaac Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 RAA allows you to do an incipient spin, which is a 1/4? turn. Spins won't kill you, but lack of training about them will. FT, I would respectfully suggest that the incipient or entry phase of a spin is considerably more than 1/4 turn. Typically the incipient phase is one to one and half turns; some types stay in the incipient stage for several rotations before they stabilize in a fully developed spin. The incipient phase is described as the unstable phase where some types oscillate as they rotate before they stabilise in the fully developed spin. I think a fair bit of effective incipient spin training could be done in RAA in the right aircraft with appropriately qualified instructors, but there seems to be real confusion on what is the incipient phase of a fully developed spin ... or is it confusion on what is really allowed to be trained under RAA rules?
motzartmerv Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Frank. The MIMI dictionary defines a spiral dive as follows. An ever-tightening downward corkscrew flying path. No mention of 60 deg bank angle there.:) By my understanding of the definition of a spiral, and the RAA rules regarding angle of bank, then we certainly CAN and SHOULD teach spiral dive recovery. Fast forward to 5.50. Tell me thats not a spiral dive 2
motzartmerv Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 It might not be a 'wild' one, but its certainly an ever tightening descending turn with the airspeed increasing. One of the biggest points of the lesson is the recognition of the spiral. The airspeed high and increasing. As apposed to a spin, where the airspeed is low and steady. (for the students, not for you frank.:)
motzartmerv Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Is there an actual report somewhere on that accident.?
Bruce Robbins Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 http://airsafety.info/wp-content/uploads/xas110522.pdf Bruce
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