Flat spin recovery in RA Aircraft

[Guest Maj Millard]

Frank, Pat Mcgrath, or Pat Mc Grouch as his students would call him !,...still lives in Wulgaru here in Townsville. We were all surprised when he just hung up the goggles and quit, saying he's had enough.

 

It was a loss that is still felt in this area, as Pat turned out a lot of good capable pilots over the years, many of whom are still around this area. He had been training for many years of course, starting at Guru with a Thruster, then Donnington and finally at what is now Starke Field, but was then Ace base as you know.

 

After he quit Iwould drop by at Xmas with a bottle of his favorite Jamesons scotch, and more than often ended up drinking half the bottle with him, which often led to a taxi ride home !!....I didn't make it around this past Xmas but folks do run into him at the supermarket, and he's quit smoking and walks a bit. I really should look him up again shortly just to say Hi.

 

I maintained 'Hornet 1' his Lightwing trainer for several years, and I think we renewed the engine three times during the course of it's life..

 

He sold it to a chap at Temora and I had the pleasure of ferrying it down for him. It had well over three thousand hours on it, but still flew straight as a die. Below is a photo of us tying 'Hornet 1' down during an overnighter at Bruslee cattle station. Brian Mc Culloch (Xair owner now) is the one in the photo. You remember him Frank, I flew him up to Arthurs' strip that time where he bought the red and green Thruster. I left bruslee early next morning and was in temora two days later. If your in Townsville anytime give me a yell , we'll grab a bottle of Jamesons and go visit Pat !..........Maj...

 

 

[kaz3g]

DJP Thanks for that and I will take a look but it doesn`t realy concern me, I just thought that if this discussion was going to continue it would be better to have the correct information rather than the nonsense.As for going for a spin with you, I try to be honest with myself and I reckon I wouldn`t be able to cop that sort of flying anymore. I possibly could have done it way back when, but now, at 64 years of age, I don`t think I would have the head for it.

 

I`m very impressed with guys like you! When I watch those extreme aerobatic maneuvers, I wonder how you can remain conscious.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

Hi Frank and DJP

 

I'm older than you, Frank and I can absolutely reassure you that age does not do anything but give you an inbuilt pressure suit... As your arteries harden it takes longer for the blood to flow from your brain!!!

 

I had a huge ride in a Yak 52 TW awhile back and I stayed awake longer than the pilot :-)

 

Kaz... Who still hasn't recovered from the awe of taking Mac Job for a jaunt in the Auster only to find he can still fly it better than she can!

 

 

[David Isaac]

I agree 100% Kaz, one day I will get in a plane with Uncle Dave and do Aeros, I reckon that would be an honour. I have immense respect for his Aero knowledge, I have learnt so much from him and I have no idea where he keeps finding immensely interesting resource material.

 

 

[djpacro]

Remember the days before the internet? It was extremely difficult and time consuming to find out information. (I wonder how many people on here remember the real "cc"?) Many years ago, for the aerobatic club members, I produced a weighty volume of information on aerobatics and aerobatic aeroplanes. All digital now and I keep adding to it - of course, working in the industry helped collect the information (on one project I worked at the NASA Spin Research Center).

 

 

[ave8rr]

That`s my old Chook, I built. Flew damn well too. I could stall it, hold the stick all the way back and by working the rudder so it wouldn`t drop a wing too far, I could have brought it all the way to the ground,fairly gently!Frank.

Ps, I built it in the middle of the harvesting season, completely from scratch,making most of the parts by hand and I was so keen to get it in the air that I`d work on it every spare moment I had and finished it in three months...If anyone wants to know where it is now, just ask and I`ll tell you!

For us newbies Frank, is the "chook" a "Chinook" (Canadian design)?? You said you built her from scratch?? Interesting.

 

Cheers

 

 

[farri]

For us newbies Frank, is the "chook" a "Chinook" (Canadian design)?? You said you built her from scratch?? Interesting.Cheers

Hi ave88r! I called it the chook in jest..When I started off, Ultralights were few and far between..By chance,I got to meet a guy who had built a similar aircraft and it was copied from the original Chinook of Canadian design..He allowed me to use his aircraft to copy from, so I simply took all the measurements that I needed and went to work..I modified mine in several places that I believed needed improving, so, realy, it`s a one of, copy from a copy of the original!

 

This morning, Fran and I went to visit the couple who now have the Chook and of course! If pilots get together, the discussion usually gets around to flying! one thing led to another and they pulled out this photo that I had completely forgoten I`d taken for them...I thought someone might like to see it.

 

 

Frank.

 

Ps. I instructed both the guy in the front seat and his wife in the back.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Hey Franko,

 

Is that a ballistic chute on the right strut or an AK47 disguised ? LOL

 

 

[farri]

Hi David! On a serious note! I wanted a bit more fuel than the original Chinook tanks held..Those are not the prettiest but they did the job well...I didn`t need the prettiest aircraft around,I needed one that I could fly...I chose not to cover the fuselage because,having ridden motor bikes, I wanted that open air experience.

 

Ballistic Chute..... Keep in mind that I had to fly that AC bellow 500` agl for several years until we got 5000` amsl...I gave a lot of thought to a balistic chute and no matter how I looked at it, I decided that it was unlikely that the chute would be of any value if the AC fell appart, however, I was confident that it wouldn`t fall appart, because I`d put my bum on the line and had test flown it well.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Not a bad looking little aircraft Frank.............a job well done I reckon.................................Maj...

 

 

[farri]

Not a bad looking little aircraft Frank.............a job well done I reckon.................................Maj...

Thanks Ross. I built it mid 1985, it`s done many hours, still looks in perfect condition and the only reason it`s not flying is because they took the engine off it to put on their X-Air. It may get back into the air some day.

 

Guys, I need to apologise for taking the thread so far off topic.

 

Frank.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Is it possible to recover from a flat spin in an RA aircraft?

Back to the original question: As already suggested by others here, I'll add my two-bobs worth in agreement and say a 100% definite "maybe".

However as friendly-looking as some RA aircraft are, I bags not being the first to flat spin one......

 

If I got in one accidentally in an RA aircraft I would:

 

a) get the power off so hard I'd probably almost pull the throttle lever off

 

b) attempt the standard recovery

 

c) attempt the Beggs recovery

 

d) see if there was some way of getting it to spin steeper (eg, moving some weight forward, or toying with the elevators, etc) then go back to (a).

 

I'm not a spinning expert of any description (albeit spin qualified), but they're probably the only thoughts which would go through my head in the sheer panic of it all, assuming I had time.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Frank, the building planets must have been lined up right in the mid-80s. I was designing and building my bipe at that time. Would be good to see that one fly again. Would you mind sending me an email with that photo. I'll put it on my Temora slide presentation as a fine example of a 95.10 aircraft at the beginning. If you or the owners wouldn't mind of course..................................Cheers Ross

 

 

[David Isaac]

Back to the original question: As already suggested by others here, I'll add my two-bobs worth in agreement and say a 100% definite "maybe".However as friendly-looking as some RA aircraft are, I bags not being the first to flat spin one......

 

If I got in one accidentally in an RA aircraft I would:

 

a) get the power off so hard I'd probably almost pull the throttle lever off

 

b) attempt the standard recovery

 

c) attempt the Beggs recovery

 

d) see if there was some way of getting it to spin steeper (eg, moving some weight forward, or toying with the elevators, etc) then go back to (a).

 

I'm not a spinning expert of any description (albeit spin qualified), but they're probably the only thoughts which would go through my head in the sheer panic of it all, assuming I had time.

I'm with you Dutchroll, except I would want three more things ... a parachute, 10000 ft below me and Uncle Dave beside me ... and ... unless you did it deliberately you wouldn't have 10,000 feet and my guess is there would be a high probability of using the parachutes.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I trained for, and got my PPL while I was working in the US. Trained in C152 and C172s. Had a great instructor who insisted I try it all. The day before I was booked to do my PPL check ride, my instructor told me to jump in the 172 solo, and go out and practise all manouvers, so I would be sharp for the test. I might have had 25 solo hours in the 172 by then.

 

Not a problem. I found myself out over the coast looking at the blue pacific on a lovely California day. Decided I would try some stalls. With about 3500' under me I did a nice one with first notch of flaps, then another with second notch of flap...oh that was a bit more exciting !....with a nice nose drop which I always enjoy.

 

OK now full flap, and up comes the nose...way, way up ! I remember thinking this is going to be a good break, when she promptly dropped the right wing and started to rotate !... Surprised as hell and with the horizon now slowly rotating, I put the yoke foward and booted in, and held, full opposite rudder which did the trick nicely, with things quickly coming back to normal. Amazing how quick you respond when you realize your the only one in the damn aeroplane !!!................................................................................Maj...

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

b) attempt the standard recovery

c) attempt the Beggs recovery

OK dutchroll, what is the Beggs recovery and how does it differ from convention? Or would you prefer me just to google this....?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Beggs recovery is hands off everything isn't it, while maintaining full rudder opposite the turn, until it pulls out and then you take control again.....correct me if I'm wrong here............................................Maj...

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

OK, I thought hands off was fairly conventional practice. Guess I should google & not be lazy....

 

 

[djpacro]

The video at the top right at http://www.richstowell.com/ demonstrates recoveries per Beggs-Mueller and PARE (which I would call the "standard" method).

 

Incidentally, Beggs has a list of aeroplanes for which it doesn't work e.g. Cessna 150 and Decathlon.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

beggs recovery would certainly make your passengers freak out.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

That guy seems to know his stuff Dj, huh ?.........................................................................Maj...

 

 

[dutchroll]

OK dutchroll, what is the Beggs recovery and how does it differ from convention? Or would you prefer me just to google this....?

Sorry. As stated, Beggs is "hands off" (but not "feet off"!). Roughly speaking:

1) Throttle closed.

 

2) Take your hands off the controls. On aircraft this works for (which is quite a few, including the Pitts models) the elevators and ailerons will "float" in a suitable position for spin recovery

 

3) Identify direction of turn by looking straight over the nose (not over your head or to the horizon), apply full opposite rudder

 

4) When the spin stops, centralise the rudder, grab the controls, and recover from whatever dive you're in.

 

The beauty is that if Beggs works on an aircraft for upright spins, then it will work for inverted too. The aircraft doesn't really care whether it's upside down or not. It frees a disorientated mind from working out whether to apply forward or back stick.

 

The aircraft it doesn't work for sometimes have issues with where the elevators sit during the spin and/or the forces on the controls. For those ones you might have to persuade the control column into the correct position to unstall the wing with varying degrees of effort (ranging from gentle, to "get in there ya bastard"). Eg, I remember many years ago flying the DHC4 Chipmunk and to stop that upright spinning you needed to position the stick a fair way forward. Otherwise it would just sit there spinning around and ignoring your input like a petulant child. I showed this to a friend one day and they didn't really like it when I said "see how it's not coming out?" I learned to be more clear in stating my intentions after that!

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

The video at the top right at http://www.richstowell.com/ demonstrates recoveries...

On the subject of Rich Stowell I was interested in buying one of his books but I can't figure out which. Anyone know if his more recent (and thicker) book "Stall / Spin awareness" includes most or all of the info in the earlier "Emergency maneuver training"? And are the DVD's essential towards following the material in these books? Ta

 

 

[djpacro]

Gnu, the two books are very different. DVDs are independent of the books. The EMT DVD covers similar scope to the EMT book. The Stall/Spin DVD shows one of his live group briefings - he did a lot more research after that before he wrote the book.

 

 

[djpacro]

..The beauty is that if Beggs works on an aircraft for upright spins, then it will work for inverted too...!

Beggs states that it will not work on the Super D inverted but I can't recall what he said about upright, I will check. I can get a Std D to "lock" the aileron pro-spin in an upright spin too so they seem to have one or two spin modes where B-M is not effective.

[dutchroll]

Beggs states that it will not work on the Super D inverted but I can't recall what he said about upright, I will check. I can get a Std D to "lock" the aileron pro-spin in an upright spin too so they seem to have one or two spin modes where B-M is not effective.

Actually now that I think of it, I believe there are a couple of aircraft for which it might not work in certain "modes". They have inconsistent recovery using that technique.

Another technique I've heard is simply visually looking inside and centering all the controls. However I can think of a number of aircraft that won't recover unless you use full opposite rudder. Then again, there are some that will pop out with neutral controls (and sufficient airspeed).

 

It's an interesting topic anyway!