Fatal trike accident at Cootamundra

[frank marriott]

Motz

 

" Is it still the LAW to carry printed copies of the WX???... "

 

I accept what you're are saying but I was unaware of the PRINTED version you refer to. Over 50nm you must GET weather was my opinion - I am not suggesting your coment is wrong . The difference to getting and printed versions I have missed in the regs.

 

Can you refer me to the relevant regs please

 

Long distance flying I carry a lap top and get WX but don't carry a printer - I don't want to sidetrack this important thread so perhaps a PM might be more to to the point.

 

I am more then happy to be informed about something I have a wrong understanding about, and I repeat I don't want to divert this thread, but someting I have done wrong for the last 30 years is something I obviously need to know about.

 

Prior to computers etc you were required to ring and submit details [and get weather and notams] which were not PRINTED and I know regs change and I still hold a current CPL I am more then a little bit interrested in your comment as I thought I was up to date but I am still happy to pointed in the right direction.

 

I know it is a minor point from your full comment but very improtant to me and I would suggest that a lot of other pilots [or maybe just me] are not aware of the reqiurement you refer to.

 

Maybe to new thread on "reguirement of a pilot before flight over 50nm".

 

I don't want to start an agruement about this matter but I am interrested in your reply.

 

FrankM

 

 

[rick-p]

Let me ask a question, would any of you let a mate drive a car if he was drunk?

 

I would hope that each and every one of you would say no that they would take his keys.

 

In my book, if it's true, that last light was pending on take off then why the hell didn't someone, at least in authority, step up to the mark and take responsibility.

 

Most people have a rather large dislike for police particularly traffic police but in there own way they have over time saved thousands of lives by just doing their job and this incident only goes to show that maybe we do need to be policed a little more.

 

It great having all the freedom to enjoy but eventually the way things are going there may be only a few left to enjoy it if we as a community don't collectively do something about it.

 

If you see something that's not right step in an act don't just stand there and give lip service to the problem.

 

Andy in his own outspoken way pretty well hits the nail on the head.

 

We need to kill the current culture of she will be right mate it won't happen to me and not kill ourselves.

 

Rick-p

 

 

[skeptic36]

Let me ask a question, would any of you let a mate drive a car if he was drunk?I would hope that each and every one of you would say no that they would take his keys.

In my book, if it's true, that last light was pending on take off then why the hell didn't someone, at least in authority, step up to the mark and take responsibility.

 

Most people have a rather large dislike for police particularly traffic police but in there own way they have over time saved thousands of lives by just doing their job and this incident only goes to show that maybe we do need to be policed a little more.

 

It great having all the freedom to enjoy but eventually the way things are going there may be only a few left to enjoy it if we as a community don't collectively do something about it.

 

If you see something that's not right step in an act don't just stand there and give lip service to the problem.

 

Andy in his own outspoken way pretty well hits the nail on the head.

 

We need to kill the current culture of she will be right mate it won't happen to me and not kill ourselves.

 

Rick-p

Hi Rick,

What you say is fundamentally correct, the problem is, did the pilot broadcast his intentions prior to take-off, if not who new he was intending to travel that far. There would have been plenty of short duration joy rides/demonstration flights taken that day and if that was what was happening then people would appear a bit foolish rushing to stop the guy or clogging the frequency to try and dissuade him.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[JayKay]

Before beating up NATFLY managment and RA-AUS can any of the people on this forum who know the identity of the pilot in question please confirm that the pilot was a member of the RAA. I don't know who the pilot was but do know that the majority of microlights in Australia are not registered with the RAA. It may not be reasonable to assume this was an RAA registered trike. NATFLY is not exclusive to RAA members.

 

 

[rick-p]

Hi Rick,What you say is fundamentally correct, the problem is, did the pilot broadcast his intentions prior to take-off, if not who new he was intending to travel that far. There would have been plenty of short duration joy rides/demonstration flights taken that day and if that was what was happening then people would appear a bit foolish rushing to stop the guy or clogging the frequency to try and dissuade him.

Regards Bill

Hi Bill,

 

You have a very valid point, but surely someone new of their intentions!

 

Anyway I only hope that their very sad loss hammers home to the aviation community that none of us are bullet proof just some of us have enough common sense to wear a bullet proof vest by avoiding those situations where we are not at least 99% certain as to what the outcome of our actions will be. In other words we don't take unecessary risks.

 

Rick-p

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Motz" Is it still the LAW to carry printed copies of the WX???... "

Can you refer me to the relevant regs please

 

Long distance flying I carry a lap top and get WX but don't carry a printer - I don't want to sidetrack this important thread so perhaps a PM might be more to to the point.

 

FrankM

Frank. Appolagies, that was a comment directed at a CASA official who, at a recent "CASA safety night" barked this statement at me and told me I wasnt compliant if I didn't "carry" a copy of the wx with me. I searched the REGs for days looking for it but couldn't find it, so I emailed them directly requesting clarification. As yet Ive had no response. I assume this person at least watches this site.

 

Anyway, that aside. I was not trying to say that someone should have radio'd or tried to stop this pilot. If it gets to that point then we really are lost. My point was, that with all those people present, and the obvious non compliance of the intended flight, there must have been little or no "cultural pressure" from our organisation for him to be concerned about doing it in front of all those present. Cultural pressure comes from us all. If we 'generally' are seen to be agreeable to this sort of thing then the culture slides downhill. Where have we gone wrong??... Where was the "peer pressure" through a safety culture? Where has it gone?

 

People don't walk down the main street of Sydney naked. Not because its illegal, but because its culturally unacceptable behaviour. Culture effects behaviour much more than legislation (IMHO).

 

apologies for the thread drift. I know better then to rant in a thread such as this.. Im just so bloody mad....

 

 

[ossie]

Can you refer me to the relevant regs please

FrankM

CAR 233 (h)

 

and

 

AWB 00-017 issue 2

 

as a valid CPL holder you'd know, or at least know how to find it.....

 

 

[Admin]

I was sitting outside our tent with a couple of others when a Trike took off and the general comment was that we thought they were just squeezing in a circuit before EOD...the conversation then went on to how Trikes love flying at this late time of the day with still air etc...but we then went on to other conversations as you do and a 2nd thought wasn't given to them landing again after their circuit.

 

This was not long after the announcement over the PA system that we were expecting 30-40 knot gust winds at around midnight with a front that was coming through

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Complete speculation follows:-

 

As an owner of a trike and a 3axis Jabiru, an announcement of 30-40kt gusts coming through would worry me no end if the trike was out in the open, less so for the J. If I didnt have appropriate tie downs for the Trike I'd be almost beside myself wondering what I could do.. Depending on the wing itself 40kts is at or very close to flying speed......

 

I wonder if that had anything to do with what occured...

 

Andy

 

 

[Robmus]

Terribly sad news. A couple of old club members, and committee members. Thoughts are with the Family and friends.

 

Frankly, ive had a gut full. Im not here to point fingers at deceased people. But I am going to point fingers at the rest of us. WTF is wrong with us.?? What sort of culture have we nurtured, where a pilot of reasonable experience, can take off into the dark FROM NATFLY.. From the bloody busiest RAA gathering in the country. Witnessed by hundreds of pilots, and no doubt the powers that be in our organisation. WTF????

 

I am beside myself with anger at the moment, and alot of it is pointed at myself. While I have tried my best to enhance the safety culture from within, I have clearly failed. I know of 3 possible IMC incursions on the way to natfly, all by pilots I have had significant dealings and influence on. It appears I have been beating my head against a wall the whole time.

 

But for ANY pilot to conceive the idea of embarking on such a flight with the whole RAA watching clearly means the culture of aimenship and safety has gone to the dogs.

 

One of my instructors attended the "office" at Natfly to ask about printing up some weather for his return flight home. He was met with a Blank stare, and told to remove the weather printed (off the wall) some 8 hours before, and told to copy it. He was dumbfounded that apparently he was the first person to ask for printed weather. The first person, at a well attended flyin. Is it still the LAW to carry printed copies of the WX???... The blank stares, mind you, were given by high ranking RAA officials.

 

Some of the accidents and incidents of recent times in Australia really do begger belief. Weve had People running tanks dry and crashing with the other tank full. We have had instructors running out of fuel on TIF's, we have had people stall and spin into water after engine failures.. We have had people letting go of controls to shut doors and crashing. And now, to top it all off, we have a pilot take off into the dark while hundreds stood back and watched.

 

Im over it. Ive failed. I give up.

 

Andy out...

[Admin]

Complete speculation follows:-As an owner of a trike and a 3axis Jabiru, an announcement of 30-40kt gusts coming through would worry me no end if the trike was out in the open, less so for the J. If I didnt have appropriate tie downs for the Trike I'd be almost beside myself wondering what I could do.. Depending on the wing itself 40kts is at or very close to flying speed......

 

I wonder if that had anything to do with what occured...

 

Andy

Andy, would you dismantle the wing for the night and move the pod to a better protected spot, tie it to a car etc

 

 

[Robmus]

Andy has said exactly what has been on my mind since I heard of this (accident?) what is happening? Are people getting complacent, mindset of it won't be me, something lacking in training, to much confidence, I don't know. Some aviators seem to not take on board that mistakes in aviation usually lead to one end result and aviation is unforgiving of that. I for one enjoy flying immensley so I go to great lengths in my planning and flying so as to avoid as much as possible outcomes like what seems to have been happening in recent months. In finishing, I am asking everybody out there to take more care in your flying and planning, and also maintenance.

 

Robert

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Complete speculation follows:-As an owner of a trike and a 3axis Jabiru, an announcement of 30-40kt gusts coming through would worry me no end if the trike was out in the open, less so for the J. If I didnt have appropriate tie downs for the Trike I'd be almost beside myself wondering what I could do.. Depending on the wing itself 40kts is at or very close to flying speed......

 

I wonder if that had anything to do with what occured...

 

Andy

Good thought, but not in this case. I believe the female concerned was imploring a departure from about 16:00 local time, however the male had some objective at NatFly, that was as yet unsatisfied, and thus delayed departure. On this basis you could well conclude that at the time of departure, they knew that the flight would not be completed before last light.

 

 

[campslive]

You haven't failed Andy, some people refuse to accept common sense, might need to get detective inspector John to do a factual and graphic seminar at NATFLY next year on the causes to get rid of the "it can't happen to me" attitude.As for no one stepping in to prevent an accident, I blame society for the fear of offending culture that now permeates everything

its another sad end ,to what was supposed to be a great fly in and gathering,

however we all know the risk taking off so late and they may even have had a head wind?which prob made the trip longer than normal?

 

as pilot in command one must look at the risk and access the situation and knowling be aware of his or her actions,

 

its a very sad and tragic news and my condolences to family and friends,,,

 

i hope we all learn from mishaps and take extra care so no more of these happen,,

 

TAKE CARE PLAN CHECK AND ENJOY,

 

 

[Jeff Gordon]

My condolences to the two aviators and their families. I was at Temora on Good Friday and flew out at 1545 for Moorabbin. I am studying for my NVFR at the moment but do not yet have the rating. I was due in at MB at 1814 according to my GPS but didn't want to risk last light at 1832, having to be on the ground 10 minutes before hand. So opted for an O'night stay at Mangalore. I could have risked it, but decided not to. To fly or not to fly? That is the question!

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

There are more details about what happened, and the names of the deceased, photos etc here:

 

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/two-die-in-light-plane-crash-after-takeoff-at-sundown-20120408-1wjlp.html

 

http://theland.farmonline.com.au/multimedia/38517/517887/easter-horror-fatal-plane-crash-at-cootamundra-picture-addison-hamilton.aspx?Start=10&page=1

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-10/ballard-tues/3940456/?site=riverina&section=news

 

Sad and unnecessary event. Condolences to family, friends and the aviation community.

 

Sue

 

 

[brilin_air]

Why is it that everyone has to be so politically correct ?

 

If this aircraft landed in a conventional fashion it would not have, as reported, landed in the dark, hit a windmill and these people would still be alive. This pilot and others that have met the same fate have failed in so many ways. Ways that could jepardise each and everyone of us that enjoy flying and do the right thing.

 

We fly with a group of people and one in particular thinks it is good to push the boundries, but as a group when we see it happen, something is said and it has changed this pilots attitude a lot. How long will it be when someone with more authority than RAAus takes control of what we have all acheived by trying to do the right thing.

 

It was not a flippant remark and not insensitive in any way, this pilot in question had the skills of a pilot, had human factors, was reported to be in the State Emergency Service and as such would have had constant risk assesment, peer pressure at being at a major event and it all failed for whatever reason.

 

As a member of RAAus and the SES I am sad to see that someone has lost their life, but when the ramifications of someones actions can result in further regulation, loss of flying privileges or whatever else may come out of something like this I do not take it lightly.

 

Brian

 

 

[alf jessup]

As the trike had a Streak-3 Wing, while 70 kn is not out of the question, 60kn would be a more realistic assumption. 70 kn is Max Manouvering Speed for the S3 wing. If it had been an SST wing, then 70kn would have been a good assumption.

Fact of the matter is it doesnt matter what wing he had on for type he wasn't going to make it before last light and he should have made a better decision that he did.

 

It was dark and they crashed pretty much for no other reason and it should never of happened but it did.

 

We can harp on forever but it is never going to change the result.

 

A mother and a father are gone and family's are in total devastation, and if this is not a wake up call to us all nothing will be.

 

You want to risk something in your flying, go right ahead as i'm not the one going to suffer.

 

Just do me one little thing before you attempt do a stupid thing, just think of what you maybe about to do to your family and how and what effect it will have on them.

 

Don't worry about what it will do to you cause you will be dead and you won't come back from that.

 

I know both the induviduals in this accident and as sad as it is, it was pilot error on all counts, even if the machine is found to of had a fault (like engine failure), you still have to see where you are putting down.

 

IMO end of story.

 

P.S maybe we should all carry a photo on the panels of what we love the most in out lives like our family's, and a quick glance at that before indulging in a risky activity might just stop you from doing it.

 

Alf

 

 

[allowera]

I am unsure whether I should comment on this tragedy, however it seems coincidental that this finite event occured at an icon of the Australian Bush.

 

I can only wonder ( with a certain amount of respect) at the final moments of these heroic aviators lives.

 

"I'll be home for tea after another fantastic day of flight, but look at the splendour of what we are witnessing".

 

Although I never met you, Rest In Peace my friends.

 

 

[terryc]

I am unsure whether I should comment on this tragedy, however it seems coincidental that this finite event occured at an icon of the Australian Bush.I can only wonder ( with a certain amount of respect) at the final moments of these heroic aviators lives.

"I'll be home for tea after another fantastic day of flight, but look at the splendour of what we are witnessing".

 

Although I never met you, Rest In Peace my friends.

My thoughts exactly I could not have put it better myself. Here. Here.

 

 

[DoubleB]

What a trajedy. From what I have read here, I am wondering if it was not a case of get-there-itis, or get-there-or-else-itis, could pressure from a loved one have cause the pilots judgement to waiver, I know it can happen. In all of the entries I have read, the thoughts are similar, stick to the book/s and try to avoid these unesessary events. My codolences go out to their family and friends.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

What's nauseating is the regularity of accidents involving stupid decisions. If there's pilot out there that need commending on getting themselves out of bad situations that THEY have got into, Then ending up in this thread section is inevitable. Come to the funeral this Friday and tell the relatives all about it.