A Safety Culture vs The Regs

[djpacro]

CAR 233 (h)and

 

AWB 00-017 issue 2

 

.....

That interpretation is a big stretch of 233(h) - it is about AIPs and Jepps etc. (That reg also applies to any flight, even if only a short hop along the runway, by the way.) The requirement for the pilot to study, nay carefully study, the weather is in CAR 239.

As for that AWB on EFBs - I understand there will be some more info from CASA on this soon.

 

Frank. Appolagies, that was a comment directed at a CASA official who, at a recent "CASA safety night" barked this statement at me and told me I wasnt compliant if I didn't "carry" a copy of the wx with me. I searched the REGs for days looking for it but couldn't find it, so I emailed them directly requesting clarification. As yet Ive had no response. I assume this person at least watches this site.

CASA seem to think that everyone at any instant must be able to demonstrate evidence of having complied with any rule (or whim) and they bully commercial operators to do so who therefore tell their students so it becomes the norm.e.g. 233 (1) (b) on weight and balance - if CASA had ramp checked me and asked about that - the evidence is back at my destination. Somewhere I saw a list of stuff that CASA was checking at Natfly - that list seemed consistent with the documents required to be carried on board. Roll on the new regs which are very much clearer however I fear that it will also demand more paper just for CASA to check.

 

....Where was the "peer pressure" through a safety culture? Where has it gone? ..... Culture effects behaviour much more than legislation (IMHO).....

I totally agree.

 

... apologies for the thread drift. I know better then to rant in a thread such as this..... .

I totally agree - a different thread perhaps?

[motzartmerv]

Yes, sorry Dj, and everyone else.

 

Since that safety seminar Ive been insisting wx be carried on navex's. But for it to be of any use the TAF's for possible diversion airfields has to be in the report aswel.

 

While the pilot was an ex club member, I had nothing to do with his training, but I have on several occasions been forced to chip him regarding minor breaches. He generally knew to behave

 

when operating out of our airfield and I thought I had made some headway with him.

 

If it comes down to instructors needing to quote and use reg's to push a point of safety or aimenship then I feel the point may be lost. Its obviously impossible to legislate aimenship, but the culture of

 

a club, a school, a group, an airfield or an organisation can certainly make a huge difference and is our best weapon to fight against accidents and incidents which involve an aspect of non compliance.

 

If a pilot feels that after taking off from a fly in that the crowd would appreciate a nice low pass and a beat up with a big pull up at the end and a stall turn, then the culture of that fly in, and the pilots there has contributed

 

to his behaviour. If on the other hand the pilot knew he would be ridiculed and held in low esteem by his peers then the culture has served him and everyone else well.

 

I attended a CASA safety night a while ago. The topic was "airmenship". The majority of the talk was centerd around words that could be used to define airmenship. I understood the idea, but failed to see

 

how airmenship was being promoted in any real, tangable, take home way by the presenters. In fact the focus was really on the regs. Apparently knowing and complying with the regs was the best advice they could give regarding becoming a good "airman". While I agree in part, that if a pilot knows the regs he is on the right track, but i feel a grave oversight has been made in CASA's view of airmenship. And that is that in a lot of "pilot error" accidents the pilot knew he was breaking rules, he knew full well which regs were not being adhered to, but, HE DID IT ANYWAY. While the rules are there to keep us safe, they certainly dont effect behaviour totally.

 

Appolagies again for the spurt in the other thread.

 

 

[djpacro]

We were talking to the some CASA people at Natfly and asking about the checks that were happening and what they were actually doing. The weather forcast came up and we were told that we had to be able to get the weather forcast where we were, this could be on the phone or a computer and it would be fine, BUT it was suggested that the weather be moved to a file in the computer that you take with you or printed as a copy that could be read incase there was no phone or internet service available.

[David Bennett]

Hi Chief, Hi all, may I say this having only been flying for 4 years now. At 50 i have a health respect for life and wanting to live. My learning has taught me that Guilt, Anger, and Frustration are all wasted emotions. While the ponits raised are valid there is no time to waste. Lets start giving each other perrmision to hold each other accountable. Lets ask the questions of each other that need to be asked, lets support each other if someoone doesnet know somthing. Lets encourage and build up our fellow aviators. Lets remove this competitive culture of egoes. Wouldnt it be nice if CASA had the culture of helping us be compliant instead of fining us for a breach like a sticker on a dase board. Im still alive to day because of my exceptional training.Thanks Andy!!!!!! Flying is a currancy based explote and most of us have limited time. I belive we do well all things concidered. Last year 36 people died on our roads the year before that 16 this year so far 9. Generally pilots are very well trainned in comparison to driving. We all make choices and we have to be free to make them. Lets learn from this and re committe to our airmanship ethic. These are the areas our time is needed not in forums pointing fingers or flailing ones self for the choices of others. PS please excuse the spelling mistakes. Dave out.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Excellent guidance but there is no "must" about it - recall the prior post -

Sorry. Don't follow. I too have attended the CASA Safety Seminars, from which my statement was sourced.

A requirement to carry weather info is not fulfilled by carrying a device that may be able to access it over a network. Hence the requirement to save it as a local file.

 

...Since that safety seminar Ive been insisting wx be carried on navex's. But for it to be of any use the TAF's for possible diversion airfields has to be in the report aswel....

Thought that was common sense and went without having to elucidate, however I keep forgetting that common sense for too many people seems to be oxymoron, so it's good to state it.My practise is to obtain weather including TAFs, METARs and NOTAMS for multiple alternates as well as the destination and save it on my phone. Even when I'm just flying locally.

 

 

[djpacro]

Sorry. Don't follow. I too have attended the CASA Safety Seminars, from which my statement was sourced.

What I was stating was that there is no requirement in the regulations to carry the weather - refer also that post by Brian (brilin_air). The requirement is to carefully study weather and NOTAMs prior to the flight. Anything else could be considered good advice and may be a requirement of a flying school.It is impossible to regulate for common sense and especially hard to write prescriptive regulations which are sensible.

 

 

[BPN]

Safety is the responsibility of each and every individual, no ifs not buts . We have all the tools in the world to assist us including "human factors" training to make considered and informed decisions. At the end of the day we make our own choices. (comply or break the rules and a few in between)

 

CASA is the policeman. Do the crime do the time. My experiences with CASA checks have found them fair and reasonable.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

What I was stating was that there is no requirement in the regulations to carry the weather - refer also that post by Brian (brilin_air). The requirement is to carefully study weather and NOTAMs prior to the flight. Anything else could be considered good advice and may be a requirement of a flying school.It is impossible to regulate for common sense and especially hard to write prescriptive regulations which are sensible.

Ah. No worries. I'm possibly confusing it with the requirement to carry relevant ERSA information.

Carrying the weather is apparently just my practise. As indicated, it was handy for me the other day when, as I departed for a local flight, I thought it was darker than I expected, so once out of the circuit area I re-checked last light time only to realise that I'd added 11 hours instead of 10 when converting to local, so my flight was somewhat shorter than I had been expecting. This was two days after the end of Daylight Saving!

 

 

[djpacro]

I hope people forgive me for taking quotes from another thread and responding here.

 

CAR 239 refers...No requirement in there to carry weather and/or NOTAM's, however it may go some way to proving that you have 'studied the necessary information' if you do have a hard/soft copy.

 

Source = "comlaw.com.au - Civil Aviation Regulations 1988, updated 27 June 2011".

and that is where, it seems to me that some (many) people in CASA go off the rails. A ramp check of the essential documents for that flight would establish basic compliance with the law (I assume that everyone flying to NatFly had a copy of the AIP Supp per Reg whatever). A chat about other aspects of the flight offering advice would be much more effective in promoting safety than asking to see 18 pages of weather and NOTAMs printed simply for the purpose of showing CASA at a ramp check. Carrying a lot of paper is not evidence that adequate pre-flight planning was undertaken.I had a minor "win" in discussion with some CASA staff a little while ago. At the meeting one casually remarked that some of the regulations are impossible to understand and I followed it up with the plea to not beat us up if we don't understand and others at the meeting continued the debate especially in the case of students and private pilots. When that change is implemented I may let you know but I emphasize that it is a very minor thing.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Great post DJ!

 

The regulations themselves are not that hard to understand, it's the convoluted interpretations of those tasked with the enforcement of those regulations, that has us spinning in circles...

 

 

[Mazda]

We contribute to it.

 

In some countries, the training is based on airmanship and decision making skills and there are not as many 'mandated' regulations, however the pilots do comply, and they use airmanship to deal with other matters. Let's take CTAFs for example. Just about everywhere else there are no mandatory joins, no mandatory calls, no mandatory minimum final. Just be aware of what is going on around you, join safely and in you go.

 

But if Australia doesn't MANDATE things, the culture seems to dictate that if it isn't written in a reg somewhere, anything goes. The rules don't say I need to make any calls, so I won't. That is not the intention, it is to use airmanship to make appropriate calls, which might be none, or could be several.

 

Motz is right. The culture needs to change. Rules or no rules, is it good airmanship to check the weather, to depart with enough light, to not depart if the aircraft is not airworthy, to carry an ELT for a short flight over tiger country etc? Of course it is. We need to get over the attitude that if it isn't mandated in specific terms in the regulations, it isn't required.

 

 

[kaz3g]

That interpretation is a big stretch of 233(h) - it is about AIPs and Jepps etc. (That reg also applies to any flight, even if only a short hop along the runway, by the way.) The requirement for the pilot to study, nay carefully study, the weather is in CAR 239.I totally agree - a different thread perhaps?

Sorry DJP... Just saw this and of course you are right on all counts

 

Kaz

 

 

[naremman]

"Safety is no accident" was one of the first of many memorable quotes that my Instructor attempted to pound into me very early in my training. Whilst that sounds like a very simple statement, and has many possible interpretations, but the attitude Mr Dawson wanted us to adopt is that you had to work to attain safe operations.

 

The training phase is vital to inculcate the rules and regs to aspiring pilots, then making the transition of applying that knowlege to develop the airmanship to safely fly an aeroplane. Any pilot who receives an exceedingly good level of instruction has very the sound foundations required to make a top quality pilot. Quality instruction must never be under estimated.

 

Gaining experience gives us a better perspective to assess situations and make more appropriate decisions. Listening to that little bell within our cranium that rings when we venture into areas that we ought not to, and acting quickly to restore adequate safety margins is a damn good suvival mechanism.

 

Carrying all the requisite paperwork is no guarantee that a pilot will follow the printed tomes. A weather forecast is guide and indication only, not gospel. Last week on some Angel Flights I had an Area 60 forecast, valid for 12 hours, that takes in metroplitan Perth, most of the Wheatbelt and extends North into the Murchison area. Thats about 3 times the size of Victoria!! In the first 130 Nm leg there were 3 entirely different weather scenarios encountered. The skill for the pilot is to thoroughly read the forecast, make some good observations of the weather prevailing at their current location, attempt to reconcile the two, and then set about making the best decision with safety to the forefront.

 

Once I had achieved my then RPPL, my Instructor described it "as a licence to learn". How right he was. There is no such thing as "instant experience". Mistakes I made aplenty, thankfully with no dire consequences, and the list of things that I have only done once is long. I believe in the old adage:"learn from other peoples mistakes, you are never going to live long enough to make all of them"!!

 

In an interesting aside in my early fifties I joined St John Ambulance and trained to Advanced Ambulance Care level as a Volunteer Ambulance Officer. My aviation experience was incredibly beneficial in the process, and in return my ambulance encounters have heightened my attitude to aviation safety. This maturing pilot still aspires to make very old pilot status.

 

 

[Spriteah]

Naremman well said.

 

 

[ayavner]

"Good judgement comes from experience. Unfortunately, most experience comes from Bad Judgement"

 

That's why I like Naremman's statement about learning from other people's mistakes. I mean, if that's the only good to come out of it, then it should do.

 

 

[facthunter]

Learning by the mistakes of others is an economical and painless way of getting valuable experience. It is also pretty certain that you will not live long enough to make them all yourself. Nev

 

 

[ossie]

That interpretation is a big stretch of 233(h) - it is about AIPs and Jepps etc. (That reg also applies to any flight, even if only a short hop along the runway, by the way.) The requirement for the pilot to study, nay carefully study, the weather is in CAR 239.As for that AWB on EFBs - I understand there will be some more info from CASA on this soon.

That's interesting Dave...

 

Most likely "printed copies" in Motz's post is where the confusion is.....

 

Yes you're are right, printed copies do not need to be carried. However, the correct interpretation of CAR 233 and the AIP, requires a 'hard copy' of a wx brief to be carried. How that hard copy is obtained is left up to the PIC.

 

I took Motz's "printed copy" comment as a 'hard copy' and, I would have thought others, knowing the rules of course, would have taken that the same way.

 

Oh, for those copying a wx brief via phone, radio or other electronic means, obviously get the latest one, don't forget to jot down the issue and validity time, it might save some embarrassment if ramp checked down the track.

 

And, storing aeronautical information locally on any electronic device and using it as your primary source of information is jumping the gun as far as the regulations are concerned regardless of what Mr OzRunways tells you. As Dave says, it's still works in progress with CASA at the present time, unless of course you have Class 1,2 or 3 EFB approval.

 

Ciao

 

Os

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...And, storing aeronautical information locally on any electronic device and using it as your primary source of information is jumping the gun as far as the regulations are concerned regardless of what Mr OzRunways tells you. As Dave says, it's still works in progress with CASA at the present time, unless of course you have Class 1,2 or 3 EFB approval.

Ciao

 

Os

..and yet CASA Safety Advisors have been saying that carrying such things as weather, AIP including ERSA, aircraft manuals and the like, locally on an electronic device is ok. In the seminars I have attended, the question was not asked in relation to charts, however for the things I have listed, it was stated as ok. This is first hand info, not heresay.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

When you hear things like that, ask for the reg. Thats become my motto lately. ;)

 

Cheers

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Years ago I was lucky enough to fly in the US. They mad it very clear what documentation was reuiquired on each flight, easily remembered by the mnemonic ARROW!

 

A - Airworthiness certificate

 

R - Registration

 

R - Radio licence

 

O - Operating limitations

 

W - Weight and balance

 

We do tend to overcomplicate things in Australia, to the point that Chief Pilots, Flying Instructors and CASA officials don't even know the real answer, hence myths and inaccuracies keep perpetuating infinitum.

 

When you hear things like that, ask for the reg. Thats become my motto lately. ;)

Mine too!

If you read the preface of the AIP there is a great paragraph about the words 'shall', 'should' and 'must' and their relationship with the Regs!

 

 

[facthunter]

I have heard a lot of questionable statements from CASA reps recently. They would not be authorised to make them and it only adds to the already considerable confusion around how the rules apply. It's about time a workable system was made available. Nev