Accident causes, training and Raa Aus responses

[brilin_air]

it met the ground in an unconventional fashion

 

 

[Jeff Gordon]

Does anyone here know the exact cause of the Trike accident?

Not yet, and yes the presumption is Innocent until proved guilty. But should that stop other pilots ruminating over something that reflects on us all.

 

 

[peterg]

it met the ground in an unconventional fashion

I rarely comment on posts no matter how bizarre or stupid - however, this is the most insensitive and stupid comment I have seen for a long time

 

 

[brilin_air]

this is the most insensitive and stupid comment I have seen for a long time

Where was this meant to be "insensitive and stupid" Peter?

 

Stupid would be, that we may have called the flight for leaving at the time they did, and there is nowhere that is even mentioned or implied.

 

Insensitive would be your comment on here for all to see, when a simple PM with your opinion would have been nicer.

 

-Linda

 

 

[farri]

Not yet, and yes the presumption is Innocent until proved guilty. But should that stop other pilots ruminating over something that reflects on us all.

Just as I thought and by the way! I wasn`t suggesting that the issue not be discussed.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Bluey]

it met the ground in an unconventional fashion

Probably not an appropriate comment. Better left out of a public forum.

Bluey.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Have I missed it or what?..All this discussion on who and what should have been done or wasn`t done!...Does anyone here know the exact cause of the Trike accident?Frank

Nope, and no-one has implied a cause either. Regardless of the outcome, a flight did take place in the dark, and was witnessed by many. Some of whom have posted here. All my comments have been directed at this FACT, as are the majority of other posters in this thread.

 

 

[Clearprop]

it met the ground in an unconventional fashion

It is a flippant, offhand, thoughtless comment that provided no new information or value, therefore, insensitive and stupid!

 

 

[Mazda]

What do people think of the US PPL? There is no night rating in the USA, because it is included (and required) in the PPL, and they do it in the same number of hours as ours - some day circuits, some night, some day navs, some night. It means all of their PPLs know about LSALT, illusions, how to turn the lights on etc. Obviously this is for NVFR equipped aircraft only.

 

 

[winsor68]

Motz... I reckon we need to get you to Temora next year to run a safety seminar/forum?

 

 

[gawler]

The safey seminars are always good value, especially after a extremely nasty event like this. They generally state what we already know, but tend to remind us, and pull us back inline, on how accidents can happen, especially when the boundaries are pushed. How often have we heard of experienced pilots ( instuctors even ) coming to grief ! This Guy was very experienced on his type, and a local, so it was his turf, and if you knew him he was a stong minded assertive person, that has been known to take risks, or at least push the boundaries. In this case the boundaries caught him out. It was an accident ! He had probably done similar things, many, many times before and got away with it.

 

From what I felt on talking to him much earlier in the day, and pervious days just about aircraft and flying etc.. he was not one to have taken any advice from anyone, no matter how useful or well meaning it was.

 

No matter how much training, or advice would have changed the outcome. It just pays to be conservative, and have a good attitude with our type of high risk sport. Always has. Hence the old says about "Old pilots, vs Bold pilots". "If you have time to spare, go by air"

 

Rob.............

 

 

[turboplanner]

I rarely comment on posts no matter how bizarre or stupid - however, this is the most insensitive and stupid comment I have seen for a long time

What would you like to say then that is sensitive and intelligent?

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

See my post #70 for links to eyewitness accounts, photographs, conjecture and statements by RAAus:-

 

Mr Tizzard said there was an average of 6.6 fatalities each year among the RA-Aus member base of 11,000 people and 3500 aircraft.

 

''Accidents do happen and sadly, given the amount of hours we fly, that figure of 6.6 people a year is not at a worrying level.''

 

The organisation is not worried. I do accept, that in this context he was attempting to play down any perception that ultralights are extremely dangerous.

 

Sue

 

 

[turboplanner]

I would disagree with him and suggest he find another career.

 

That level, in a recreational activity is extremely worrying, and as we've seen over the past 12 to 18 months, correctible.

 

It is not acceptable that someone going out to enjoy himself does not come home, and often leaves a family without any support.

 

That was not the message insurers want to hear.

 

That was not the message Councils, grappling with Public Liability want to hear.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

The organisation is not worried. I do accept, that in this context he was attempting to play down any perception that ultralights are extremely dangerous.

Sue

This is a raw statistic and only tells a part of the story. In road statistics too, only the total number is quoted, probably because quoting a larger figure makes people take notice when trying to impart safety messages. If however we were to look at the risk we take, as conservative, law abiding pilots, then the figure would have to omit accidents that were caused by intentional performance of very high risk and unlawful activities. I suspect doing so may halve the figure.

 

 

[David Isaac]

This should be a wake up call to all of us.

 

I would speculate that perhaps without too much thinking the PIC may have thought ... only 29Klms NM to home Cootamundra... still got enough light to get there ... I can easy do it ... done it before ...???

 

And in a breach of the rules, he took off ...

 

It could have happened that quickly in an inadequate thought process when assessing the risk ... the result ... two needless deaths and devastated families ... with social and emotional consequences that will haunt the families for years. So tragic.

 

How many risks have we taken and only just survived ... I'll put my hand up ... not at all proud of my mistake, but I was a blessed man and lived to tell the story.

 

We ALL MUST wake up on these issues and properly assess the risks, think again before you take a flight with unacceptable risk potential. Lets all think hard about this one please, these kind of deaths are avoidable.

 

Getting in an aircraft and flying has inherent risks, lets not raise the risks beyond what is reasonable and acceptable.

 

Edit: Corrected typos to be more accurate as pointed out by GG.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

I would speculate that perhaps without too much thinking the PIC may have thought ... only 29Klms to home ... still got enough light to get there ... I can easy do it ... done it before ...??? And in a breach of the rules, he took off ...

29 km to Nowra? I don't think so. There are plenty of other things one could speculate about in any such accident; was alchol involved? depression? (I don't know the pilot so I'm generalising here) The list is almost endless... but not much point speculating as we simply dont know. I suggest give it a rest until a report comes out - or not.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Wondered how long the "wait for the report" would take. As we know, from endless posts on previous threads, in RAA there will not be one, unless ATSB choose to investigate.

 

 

[David Isaac]

29 km to Nowra? I don't think so. There are plenty of other things one could speculate about in any such accident; was alchol involved? depression? (I don't know the pilot so I'm generalising here) The list is almost endless... but not much point speculating as we simply dont know. I suggest give it a rest until a report comes out - or not.

You missed the WHOLE point of my post GG ... The distance is irrelevant .. I was attempting to highlight how we recognise, assess and mitigate risk as aviators.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Distance from Temora to Cootamundra= 28.4 Nm.

 

GS (no wind) = 70kts (1.2 Miles per minute)

 

ETI= 23.6 minutes.

 

ATD=605 pm

 

ETA=629 pm (without allowing manouvre time for departure and arrival)

 

Last light 620 pm

 

I spoke to the police investigator yesterday, at length. Obviously im not at liberty to discuss the whole conversation, but they are focusing their investigation on the figures given above.

 

The crash site indicates a high vertical speed and low forward speed.

 

Emergency call was received at 637 pm.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Thanks Motz,

 

My point reinforced ... and my stated 29 klms was perhaps an obvious typo.

 

 

[Teckair]

It is a flippant, offhand, thoughtless comment that provided no new information or value, therefore, insensitive and stupid!

Maybe, but no worse than previous comments which seemed to indicate that people who witnessed the trike take off were some how to blame. Who out there has never made a slip up such as this?

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Distance from Temora to Cootamundra= 28.4 Nm.GS (no wind) = 70kts (1.2 Miles per minute)

ETI= 23.6 minutes.

 

ATD=605 pm

 

ETA=629 pm (without allowing manouvre time for departure and arrival)

 

Last light 620 pm

 

I spoke to the police investigator yesterday, at length. Obviously im not at liberty to discuss the whole conversation, but they are focusing their investigation on the figures given above.

 

The crash site indicates a high vertical speed and low forward speed.

 

Emergency call was received at 637 pm.

As the trike had a Streak-3 Wing, while 70 kn is not out of the question, 60kn would be a more realistic assumption. 70 kn is Max Manouvering Speed for the S3 wing. If it had been an SST wing, then 70kn would have been a good assumption.

 

 

[Bluey]

True airspeed of a streak 3 is about 53kt. Don't take too much notice of the ASI. It is not calibrated for the trike environment. To do 60kt true airspeed in the streak takes lots of back pressure on the bar. An sst is about 5kt faster that's it.

 

Anyway, was the trike an airborne? As the photos in the article showed something else.

 

Political correctness should only be adhered to because this is a public forum. You can say what you like when it's not published.

 

If this forum was viewed only by the flying community then it doesn't hurt anyone and nobody should care.

 

Bluey.

 

 

[alf jessup]

True airspeed of a streak 3 is about 53kt. Don't take too much notice of the ASI. It is not calibrated for the trike environment. To do 60kt true airspeed in the streak takes lots of back pressure on the bar. An sst is about 5kt faster that's it.Anyway, was the trike an airborne? As the photos in the article showed something else.

Political correctness should only be adhered to because this is a public forum. You can say what you like when it's not published.

 

If this forum was viewed only by the flying community then it doesn't hurt anyone and nobody should care.

 

Bluey.

Bluey,

 

Was an XT 912 just like mine same color and all and air speed is irrelevant as the sun was going down faster than the speed it was making to it's destination.

 

Alf