Accident causes, training and Raa Aus responses

[farri]

I know both the induviduals in this accident and as sad as it is, it was pilot error on all counts, even if the machine is found to of had a fault (like engine failure), you still have to see where you are putting down.IMO end of story. Alf

Goodonya Alf! That statement has given me reason to say this!...I`ve got more than a couple of thousand hours flying "Ultralights" of various makes and models. I instructed for 12 years. I`ve had enough engine failures and walked away without a scratch or breaking the AC to know what I`m talking about! Though what I`m going to say has nothing to do with trying to fly in the dark, it has potentially the same end result.

 

When I was instructing I realy drove home the point of always flying within gliding distance of a safe landing area and to be continuously saying, " If the engine stops right now, that`s where I`m going to land". I`ve always flown this way, it has saved me every time and I always will fly this way and whenever I get the chance, I tell other pilots to do the same!

 

Why is it that with all the emphasis being placed on safety and accidents that shouldn`t occur and are preventable, there isn`t more emphasis being put on flying within gliding distance of a safe landing area, at all times?

 

Over the weekend, I took a guys girlfriend for her first flight in an Ultralight aircraft ( The Drifter). I explained to them that if done properly the Drifter is a very safe AC to fly but that it isn`t a toy and they kill for real ( The exact words I use when trying to drive the point home ). The guy then proceeded to tell me how a guy he knew, flying in an Ultralight, had an engine failure, no where to go but into the trees, crashed heavily and lost both legs.

 

How many such accidents have there been?... I don`t know the exact number but I do know that there have been many and they all could have been avoided, had there been a safe place to land and the pilot capable of landing the AC!

 

Frank.

 

Ps, A little of topic but I`d like some discussion on this issue,please!

 

 

[alf jessup]

Goodonya Alf! That statement has given me reason to say this!...I`ve got more than a couple of thousand hours flying "Ultralights" of various makes and models. I instructed for 12 years. I`ve had enough engine failures and walked away without a scratch or breaking the AC to know what I`m talking about! Though what I`m going to say has nothing to do with trying to fly in the dark, it has potentially the same end result.When I was instructing I realy drove home the point of always flying within gliding distance of a safe landing area and to be continuously saying, " If the engine stops right now, that`s where I`m going to land". I`ve always flown this way, it has saved me every time and I always will fly this way and whenever I get the chance, I tell other pilots to do the same!

 

Why is it that with all the emphasis being placed on safety and accidents that shouldn`t occur and are preventable, there isn`t more emphasis being put on flying within gliding distance of a safe landing area, at all times?

 

Over the weekend, I took a guys girlfriend for her first flight in an Ultralight aircraft ( The Drifter). I explained to them that if done properly the Drifter is a very safe AC to fly but that it isn`t a toy and they kill for real ( The exact words I use when trying to drive the point home ). The guy then proceeded to tell me how a guy he knew, flying in an Ultralight, had an engine failure, no where to go but into the trees, crashed heavily and lost both legs.

 

How many such accidents have there been?... I don`t know the exact number but I do know that there have been many and they all could have been avoided, had there been a safe place to land and the pilot capable of landing the AC!

 

Frank.

 

Ps, A little of topic but I`d like some discussion on this issue,please!

Might pay to open another thread Frank,

 

I'm sure you will get some feedback on it.

 

I agree totally with what you have written.

 

Alf

 

 

[Bluey]

Bluey,Was an XT 912 just like mine same color and all and air speed is irrelevant as the sun was going down faster than the speed it was making to it's destination.

 

Alf

I was just commenting on a previous post regarding the ground speed of a few of the wings. I think it's pretty safe to say that both the pilot and his pilot passenger knew they were going to arrive after dark.

Bluey.

 

 

[Clansman]

This accident is bewildering, as are many of the posts here. I'm sensing much of our expressions are rooted in a mixture of grief, disbelief, anger and immense sadness. My sincere condolences to the family.

 

In defence of Natfly attendees and RAAus and CASA officials, most were in attendance at the Natfly dinner at the time of the accident. The first bus left at 5:58pm from the airfield. I was sitting at the table adjacent to them and noticed incoming phone calls and very concerned faces around 7:30pm or 8pm and I got a distinctly uncomfortable feeling that something was up. Imagine what these people had to deal with - news of 2 deaths in the surreal environs of a celebratory dinner! Nothing was announced, which was only right of course at that very early juncture.

 

We all (or most of us) left the evening feeling how successful the weekend had been. I flew out at 7:05 am Sunday still unaware.

 

As far as anyone left at Temora who could chastise or counsel by radio anyone leaving at sunset, I doubt that anyone at that time would have had a live handheld radio to hear the departing call because all were intent on organising dinner or showers. We were probably all aware of late circuits by a Foxbat and a gyro presumably running joyflights just before 6pm so a trike would not have attracted any unusual attention. I don't think the Unicom was operational either.

 

From what's emerged in this thread, dismay seems uppermost in everyone's minds. Let's hope we can all learn something meaningful, whether a late flight exacerbated an equipment issue, or whether it was purely poor light as sole cause.

 

Stay safe everyone.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Clansman there is one post reporting an official remonstrating with the pilot before he took off, another of the co-pilot trying to get him to move at 4 pm, and other posts which include timelines, long term attitude, aircraft modifications etc on the various forums which when pulled together form a compelling picture.

 

We've learned from Bill Hamilton this is a 24/7 airfield, so suggestions that it should have been closed before last light wouldn't have worked, and the officials you talk of could not be expected to have ESP, however if the report about the official is true, he might have some worries in coming years as the Estate looks for someone to blame.

 

Getting away from this incident and the people involved, and just talking generally, if I owned an aircraft hangared at your field, and I was exhibiting repeated flouting of the rules, then as a senior instructor, how would you go about bringing me back to a safe standard?

 

 

[David Isaac]

..... and I was exhibiting repeated flouting of the rules, then as a senior instructor, how would you go about bringing me back to a safe standard?

I know what I would do to you, you old bugga, but I can't say it on this forum ...

 

 

[eightyknots]

See my post #70 for links to eyewitness accounts, photographs, conjecture and statements by RAAus:-Mr Tizzard said there was an average of 6.6 fatalities each year among the RA-Aus member base of 11,000 people and 3500 aircraft.

 

''Accidents do happen and sadly, given the amount of hours we fly, that figure of 6.6 people a year is not at a worrying level.''

 

The organisation is not worried. I do accept, that in this context he was attempting to play down any perception that ultralights are extremely dangerous.

 

Sue

I would disagree with him and suggest he find another career.That level, in a recreational activity is extremely worrying, and as we've seen over the past 12 to 18 months, correctible.

It is not acceptable that someone going out to enjoy himself does not come home, and often leaves a family without any support.

 

That was not the message insurers want to hear.

 

That was not the message Councils, grappling with Public Liability want to hear.

 

It is also something that "loved ones" of recreational pilots do not want to hear either.

 

 

[Teckair]

I know what I would do to you, you old bugga, but I can't say it on this forum ...

Mmm maybe a smack in the ear?? ( just trying to help out here)

 

 

[coljones]

"Mr Tizzard said there was an average of 6.6 fatalities each year among the RA-Aus member base of 11,000 people and 3500 aircraft.

 

''Accidents do happen and sadly, given the amount of hours we fly, that figure of 6.6 people a year is not at a worrying level.''"

 

Far be it from me to judge the press but Steve used the word "sadly" in his sentence and this means that he is concerned. Perhaps the press got it wrong and added a "not" in front of "at a worrying level" or perhaps Steve was expressing a concern that there are some pilots out there not concerned that they are adding to the stats - and that, after the deaths last Saturday, is worrying.

 

 

[robinsm]

I would have thought that any death average was a worrying level. Maybe we should coin the phrase "tizzardisms". These were people, not statistics for goodness sake.!!!!!

 

 

[fly_tornado]

RAA only does licences and rego, CASA's job is safety.

 

 

[robinsm]

I thought everyones job was safety.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

If the RAA does safety reviews, accident investigations etc. it will only mean more deaths. Your safety is always your own responsibility. How many are happy with the quality of RAA pilots?

 

 

[David Isaac]

RAA only does licences and rego, CASA's job is safety.

FT,

RAAus role is far more than certificates and registration. I would argue that RA Aus has a responsibility to its members' safety and welfare and should have a significant education function. All of us have a responsibility to operate and promote safety in aviation.

 

CASA's role is that of a safety regulator; CASA should be actively involved in safety promotion and from where I sit they run a lot of safety seminars ... how effective do you think the safety seminars are? The ones I have attended have been excellent.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

What safety infrastructure and resources does the RAA actually have though?

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

This incident in my opion was simply of the pilots' own making unfortunatly.. I did not know the person but from previous posts I can assume he was experienced, and would have know about the perils of running out of light after sunset. He would have also know the distance to his destination, and the expected cruise speed of his craft. I'm sure he would have considered all of theses factors, but still decided to 'go for it'. Unfortunatly it didn't work out, and I too as a fellow aviator at Temora that day mourned their sad loss.

 

Could or should the RAAus officials on site have stopped his take off ?.......probabily not. Although a sanctioned meet, they did not have full control over what really still was, a public use airport. Their advisory unicom was there to assist the flow if traffic for safety reasons, and did a good job each day of doing just that.

 

The day was basically over anyway when the trike departed, and I'm sure the RAAus officals like the rest of us, were then involved in preparing themselves for the presentation dinner, or catching the free bus to it.

 

The only entity really on site who had any jurisdiction to stop the late departure that day, would have been the CASA officials on site. They too were probabily preparing themselves at that late stage of the day, for the above proceedings which they all attended.

 

There were still aircraft flying the circut giving late demonstration rides (quite legally) which had happened all day long, so another one taking off would not have been seen to be unusual.

 

Human factors failed miserably on this one , but it must all go back to the PIC who unfortunatly made the bad decision to depart too late, for a too long cross-country flight..............................................................Maj...

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Definitely a lack of flight planning leading to the worst possible scenario. Better training might have stopped him making the mistake, maybe.

 

 

[robinsm]

Hey FT, I am very happy with the Raa Aus pilots. You mean to say that GA pilots make no mistakes and dont crash planes? Wow, maybe I have been doing it all wrong so far.

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't believe this problem is confined to RAAus. There may be a new "culture" out there, where we so often deal with an "unreal' world (games etc) that the only time it all becomes real is just before death. Inattentive driving, careless and selfish road usage etc There comes a point where constant talk of something produces a negative reaction to it, eventually. The RAAus isn't negligent in addressing safety. We could have done human factors better though, and I believe we should continue to try. An aeroplane is not like a car where you can just pull over and have a rest. Once your wheels leave the ground you are in a vastly different situation. Nev

 

 

[alf jessup]

I don't believe this problem is confined to RAAus. There may be a new "culture" out there, where we so often deal with an "unreal' world (games etc) that the only time it all becomes real is just before death. Inattentive driving, careless and selfish road usage etc There comes a point where constant talk of something produces a negative reaction to it, eventually. The RAAus isn't negligent in addressing safety. We could have done human factors better though, and I believe we should continue to try. An aeroplane is not like a car where you can just pull over and have a rest. Once your wheels leave the ground you are in a vastly different situation. Nev

Nev,

 

Correct, a deadly situation once the wheels leave the ground if you don't treat it right and with the utmost respect, lots of car accidents are cause by the other driver, well we don't have too many mid airs thank god so most of our accidents are pilot (driver) error.

 

Alf

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I would have thought that any death average was a worrying level. Maybe we should coin the phrase "tizzardisms". These were people, not statistics for goodness sake.!!!!!

If everyone is worried by the number of accidents, then why do some of them still do things they know to be illegal and severely high risk?

 

If reported correctly, I suspect his was the thought behind ST's remark.

 

It does not matter how hard and earnestly RAA tries to improve safety, if some individuals flagrantly ignore it, there will always be a low but non-zero percentage death rate. That shouldn't stop us all trying, but everyone has to try, not just assign safety as someone else's problem.

 

 

[alf jessup]

If everyone is worried by the number of accidents, then why do some of them still do things they know to be illegal and severely high risk?If reported correctly, I suspect his was the thought behind ST's remark.

 

It does not matter how hard and earnestly RAA tries to improve safety, if some individuals flagrantly ignore it, there will always be a low but non-zero percentage death rate. That shouldn't stop us all trying, but everyone has to try, not just assign safety as someone else's problem.

Because David,

 

It always happens to someone else, didn't you know that ? sad part is that every surname that flys has that chance of changing theirs to someone else and not by choice but by accident literally.

 

Alf

 

 

[Clansman]

Getting away from this incident and the people involved, and just talking generally, if I owned an aircraft hangared at your field, and I was exhibiting repeated flouting of the rules, then as a senior instructor, how would you go about bringing me back to a safe standard?

 

Great question Turboplanner and worthy of another thread.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Get-there-itis is a 'disease' which affects pilots, truck drivers, yachties, car drivers and others. Unfortunately, people think that "all will be well" even though there are, in all likelihood, inner feelings of doubt before their departure.

 

Get-there-itis is an entirely preventable disease. Sadly, get-there-itis still claims lives.

 

 

[Yenn]

I ahve only scanned this post, but I note that someone raised the question of wether or not RAAus should have stopped his take off.

 

That raises the question of was RAAus complying with its ops manual, which I believe calls for there to be a senior person in charge of all flying. Something which is seldom complied with, because it is a senseless requirement. Interesting thought though!