Type of fuel you use?

[Bluey]

I have been using 95 octane fuel in my Microlight XT912's as standard practice but was recently told that this octane grade of fuel may contain less than 10% ethanol by a fellow pilot and not be advertised as containing ethanol. I was both disturbed and perplexed by this claim. After a little investigating I was told that any fuel containing even a small amount of ethanol needs to be advertised at the pump. This apparently is legislated. Yet an investigation by a fellow pilot using a typical fuel tester and a small sample of water of a range of 95 octane rated fuels from a variety of different suppliers indicated ethanol was indeed present in the fuel. This result is at odds with claims by fuel companies.

 

The idea behind the test is that fuel that contains ethanol mixes with water causing the apparent water level in the test tube to rise above the original volume of water added.

 

Now, if the results of my fellow aviator are taken at face value, then the fuel companies are not to be believed and we have a possible conspiracy on our hands.

 

Alternatively, there may be another explanation and that is that other additives are giving us the same response that ethanol would. this would make this testing method invalid.

 

Has anyone checked out the fuel they use for ethanol content by doing this test?

 

The fuel companies have assured me that it is against the law to add any ethanol to fuel without clearly stating it at the pump. Even E10 fuel states that "up to 10%" ethanol is present in the fuel. This clearly means that the actual content may be less.

 

Bluey.

 

 

[robinsm]

I believe (and I stand to be corrected) that they don't have to state the ethanol content if it is less than 5%. I run either 98 premium caltex and avgas. I get my fuel from the same gas station each time and test it at least once a fortnight for ethanol using the same method you described. So far, I have not had a bad batch (in 4 years). (instead of using the small fuel tester I sometimes use a larger jar so I can get a better result if there is one there to look at.)

 

 

[Bluey]

Ok, I haven't checked the legislation personally but the caltex operator I spoke to assured me that any ethanol content has to be stated. Are you saying he is mistaken because I may have been using ethanol laced fuel for years and not known about it. This is disturbing and I wonder how many other people This may have affected. I will search the legislation and report back.

 

Bluey.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I switched from 91 TO 95 a few months ago as it has been shown to be cleaner and clean the fuel system. I test every batch using the method you indicated. The only positive result was United 95, which is labelled as 10% Ethanol. I bought a few hundred mills just to test. It showed about 8%.

 

 

[Bluey]

I have found a link to the victorian automotive chamber of commerce which clearly indicates the Victorian position of ethanol labelling of fuels. It confirms that all fuels containing any amount of ethanol needs to be marked at the pump as containing ethanol and the percentage it contains.

 

Here's the link: http://www.vacc.com.au/ConsumerInfo/Alternativefuels/EthanolVACCEthanolPositionPaper/tabid/2040/Default.aspx

 

Bluey.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I have been told that some fuel companies are boosting octane ratings using toluene (methyl benzene). This is a serious solvent (and carcinogen) and can attack lacquered cork gaskets in carbies, etc.

 

Shell PULP is apparently "clean" ...I use avgas.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Bluey]

I just spoke to Bert floods about this and they say that the 912ul is fine to run on E10. The issue would be more the fuel tanks individual aircraft have installed.

 

Bluey.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Remember that if you have an Airborne 912 trike, it is a Certified aircraft. Although it is ok to run up to 10% Ethanol in the engine (per Rotax), the "fuel system" is not covered by that statement. Airborne have not listed any Ethanol containing fuels in the Operation Manual, and thus it is not legal to use.

 

This may not apply to the LSA edition of the trike(s), you would have to make your own enquiries. We have had posts on here before from someone in South Africa? who runs Ethanol containing fuel in a 912 trike.

 

 

[Bluey]

The plastic fuel tank in your airborne trike will most likely not be ethanol friendly. I have heard that it is A good quality fuel tank but I'll have to check with airborne on what they say. Either way, I wouldn't use any ethanol mix in the trike.

 

Bluey.

 

 

[alf jessup]

I just spoke to Bert floods about this and they say that the 912ul is fine to run on E10. The issue would be more the fuel tanks individual aircraft have installed.Bluey.

Bluey,

 

Wal told me many moons ago to run only standard 91 octane fuel in the 80hp, i used to use 95 and 98 up until the additives in it started eating into the fuel tank and blocking the idle jets.

 

He told me that with the white tanks we have in the 912 the light affects it, if the tanks were black it wouldn't be a problem.

 

He told me that the 80hp runs best on standard unleaded and only the 100hp needs the higher grade fuel.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[Bluey]

Which particular additives do you mean alf? Most people I know have been using the higher octane stuff for quite a number of years without any complaints. So what fuel do you use now as here in the big smoke the only other options are diesel or that E10 stuff?

 

Bluey.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Bluey,

 

I used to use shell Vmax years ago, it used to attack the inner lining of the tank and end up with a clear slime in the idle jets.

 

I now use solely shell standard unleaded, i have tested it for ethanol on random occasions and never found any and have no trouble since.

 

I think it is just the additives they use in the vmax that was doing it, i cannot tell you what is in it.

 

Alf

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Bluey,I used to use shell Vmax years ago, it used to attack the inner lining of the tank and end up with a clear slime in the idle jets.

If my memory serves me correctly, you should be able to find posts about this in another thread. Also there was an AD about not using it in aircraft.

 

 

[flytrikes]

I have been using Caltex Vortex 98 in my 582. What are other people using in their 582's? I guess I am probably going a little bit overboard with the 98.

 

 

[pudestcon]

I have been using Caltex Vortex 98 in my 582. What are other people using in their 582's? I guess I am probably going a little bit overboard with the 98.

Caltex standard unleaded, Ron 91 I believe, mixed with 2% Castrol Active 2T 2-stroke oil.

Pud

 

 

[kaz3g]

I just did a trip from the Yarra Valley to Middlebrook Station near Scone. The dearest avgas was at my home field, Coldstream at $2.19 per litre and Cheapest at Middlebrook at $1.62. Temora, Parkes and Scone were all cheaper than Coldstream, too.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Louis Moore]

Is VMAX the same as the newer V-Power from Shell? There is a Shell station close to me and I would love to be able to use it instead of having to drive elsewhere!!!!!

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

You should read http://www.raa.asn.au/documents/airworthiness/lrpmobiladvice.PDF which provides a warning against Shell Optimax due to believed erosion of seals. CASA Letter on related subject: http://www.auf.asn.au/airworthiness/lrpsealscasa.pdf

 

I don't know how this relates to re-branded fuels.

 

 

[Methusala]

Just for the record, I use Shell 91 ron unleaded in my 582 as Pud does. I think there is a tendency to wish to "spoil" our engines by using more expensive fuels and oils. The Rotax runs fine on standard unleaded and Castrol 2t. Castrol's sole business is lubrication and other associated fluids. It would not be in the interests of such a behemoth to sell anything but the best performing products, I believe. When I bought my X-Trail, I read a lot of what other owners said on chat blogs. I read that if one used the (more expensive) 98 fuel then the extra mileage would easily cover the difference in price. Guess what I found! Not a grain of truth in it. I know that a lot of people believe differently but this is my experience. Cheers, Don. PS. I recently bought a 582 that had run on the green slime. I know that it ran an oil injection system and when I pulled it apart at 350 hrs the oil had gummed up the ring lands to the extent of NO MOVEMENT in the rings! Not a pretty sight.

 

 

[Dieselten]

BP 98-octane Ultimate in my trike, and nothing else. Never had a problem with it. Never.

 

 

[Mark11]

BP 98-octane Ultimate in my trike, and nothing else. Never had a problem with it. Never.

My CFI agrees. BP 98 only... Apparently all come from same refinery Shell Vmax etc

 

 

[Mark11]

I did some further google searching and came across the following post. Im not sure if we can post it here... Assuming we can if we make reference to its source... If not can admin delete please.

 

reference: whrl.pl/RcXpjt

 

posted 2011-Oct-15, 9am AEST

 

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1771243

 

Andebrook wrote a reply to another poster Nuard... Its in colour on their blog...

 

Mate you are off on a few things here...

 

Nuard writes...

 

All product is carried in the same piping system, and tanks arent cleaned between product changes.

 

Refinery fed terminals use the same primary pipe into the terminal.

 

Once in the terminal, there is a pipe for every different base grade (G10, M91, M96, M98, E100)

 

Tanks are NEVER empty – safety, air, loss of suction – except for scheduled maintenance.

 

Nuard writes...

 

All fuel is exactly the same, comes from the same storage tanks and isn't separated into brands at all, same with Diesel (except Vortex diesel since it has an extra anti foam additive)

 

The base grade is the same – it has to be, it is an Australian standard and requirement.

 

The final product that gets pumped into your car is different for every grade for every company.

 

Vortex G10 additive is added at the terminal level also.

 

Nuard writes...

 

There is a difference however on the QC between the big three. Both Caltex and BP only pull test samples at the refinery level, Shell however not only pull samples at the refinery, but they also pull samples at all the major storage sites and do significantly more random checks at servo's.

 

It is an Australia requirement that all product must settle in tank at the terminal level and be sampled and tested prior to release to the gantry.

 

Refinery testing occurs to ensure that off-spec product is not sent down the pipe, as there is no way to pump back to a refinery (truck back only option).

 

Product MUST and DOES get tested at the terminal level as the spec changes once moved in a pipeline (mulitgrade pipeline provides low risk of contamination) – ie: conductivity in JET-A1 decreases with movement.

 

Nuard writes...

 

All the different fuel types use the same additive pack, feel free to look at the MSDS's of each product which lists whats in the packs.

 

Absolute rubbish.

 

As a driver you only have access to the gantry area and driveways of a terminal.

 

Mini-Pac additive pumps at the gantry provide no insight as to what additive is being put into each product.

 

If you had access to the tank farm, you would notice that there are multiple additive tanks throughout the terminal, each for a different grade for a different company.

 

All majors use COMPLETELY different additives in their products, this is what provides the point of differentiation and why majors spend money on R&D!

 

As for Vortex, you cannot pump an anti-foam additive (key word here) down a refinery pipeline for quality and contamination reasons – it is added at the gantry level when loading your barrells...

 

 

[XC-Buzzard]

My CFI agrees. BP 98 only... Apparently all come from same refinery Shell Vmax etc

Well all I can say is you guys are very lucky to even have a choice of octane, I do not have 98 here at all so that only leaves Premium unleaded 95 in my Town. The three Fuel stations that are here For some reason have all decided that they wont get it in. Yet from what I can tell , the one truck supplies all three, comes up from Dubbo. No matter how much we ask , they claim nobody uses it anymore.