Am I worried about nothing!

[Stewy]

Went for a fly the other day with my 9 year old son for his birthday. Taxied to the runway giving taxing call for 26 and proceeded with run ups and checks etc. Noticed a plane at the fuel bowser on my way past (172 cessna I think) but took no further notice as pilot was still out of aircraft. Finished run ups and give a call entering 26 and backtracking 08 for the about 2-3 knot wind favoring 08 noticed another planes shadow on taxi way and assumed it was waiting at holding point.Taxied down runway and turned around at the end to see said Cessna 50 meters behind me! Not one call on radio at any stage so I double check mine to make sur I am on the right frequency and am. I was shocked to say the least and didn't say anything except to give a rolling call with my intentions. As I had my son with me I did not want to start rambling on the radio about what I would have thought was a bit of common courtesy to ask if he minded if he taxied behind me and followed me after I was clear of the runway. Just seemed to me to be not the right thing to do but maybe I am barking up the wrong tree! It is not about RA vs GA just weather it was right or not! I would like your thoughts

 

Regards

 

Stewy

 

 

[alf jessup]

Went for a fly the other day with my 9 year old son for his birthday. Taxied to the runway giving taxing call for 26 and proceeded with run ups and checks etc. Noticed a plane at the fuel bowser on my way past (172 cessna I think) but took no further notice as pilot was still out of aircraft. Finished run ups and give a call entering 26 and backtracking 08 for the about 2-3 knot wind favoring 08 noticed another planes shadow on taxi way and assumed it was waiting at holding point.Taxied down runway and turned around at the end to see said Cessna 50 meters behind me! Not one call on radio at any stage so I double check mine to make sur I am on the right frequency and am. I was shocked to say the least and didn't say anything except to give a rolling call with my intentions. As I had my son with me I did not want to start rambling on the radio about what I would have thought was a bit of common courtesy to ask if he minded if he taxied behind me and followed me after I was clear of the runway. Just seemed to me to be not the right thing to do but maybe I am barking up the wrong tree! It is not about RA vs GA just weather it was right or not! I would like your thoughtsRegards

Stewy

If you ask him Stewy he might say he had the right to do it cause he was in a real plane and he doesn't need to do run up's or anything.

 

I would have got on the radio and asked him if his radio worked and if he replied yes I would of said "i'd appreciate it if you used it to let me know you were entering and back tracking behind me".

 

Na don't think you barking up the wrong tree you had the runway in my view, it was occupied by you with the correct calls made.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[David Isaac]

Stewy,

 

You made the call notifying you were backtracking, you had the right of way over other aircraft on the ground.

 

Once you were on the runway, he should NOT have entered. He could have called and asked if you minded him backtracking behind you advising he would turn and remain behind you.

 

That is an example of poor airmanship on three counts:

 

1. He failed to broadcast intentions

 

2. He did not demonstrate an expected courtesy

 

3. What he did was illegal, you cannot have two aircraft on the runway simultaneously unless you are formation flying and qualified and/or under formation instruction to do so.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I agree that he failed to follow CAAP 166 in addition to the fact that he should have sought your agreement to his entering the runway you were occupying.

 

 

[Stewy]

Thanks for the replies. It was more the fact that he didn't say anything that I was more concerned about I get a little bit protective of my safety when I have my kids with me not that we were in great danger but that is how s##t happens as they say.

 

Next time I will speak up

 

Regards

 

Stewy

 

 

[kaz3g]

Stewy,You made the call notifying you were backtracking, you had the right of way over other aircraft on the ground.

Once you were on the runway, he should NOT have entered. He could have called and asked if you minded him backtracking behind you advising he would turn and remain behind you.

 

That is an example of poor airmanship on three counts:

 

1. He failed to broadcast intentions

 

2. He did not demonstrate an expected courtesy

 

3. What he did was illegal, you cannot have two aircarft on the runway simultaneously unless you are formation flying and qualified and/or under formation instruction to do so.

A taxi call is mandated if aircraft is fitted with radio

 

Kaz

 

 

[djpacro]

What he did was illegal, you cannot have two aircarft on the runway simultaneously unless you are formation flying and qualified and/or under formation instruction to do so.

Really? So, two aeroplanes cannot taxi on the same runway unless fortmation endorsed??

[David Isaac]

Really? So, two aeroplanes cannot taxi on the same runway unless fortmation endorsed??

I somehow knew you would get me on this one uncle Dave ... LOL

He was back tracking on the runway, his movement was unrelated to the following aircarft, which meant when the leading aircarft turned to line up, the following aircraft would be an obstruction to his takeoff. I was taught when you are in a line of aircraft to take off you wait at the holding point (clear of runway) and do not enter the runway until the preceding aircraft has lifted off. That is the etiquette I was taught and follow unless, as a courtesy I request the preceding aircraft's permission to follow, which we often do when backtracking at Taree using the main runway because it is so long and has no taxiway to the northern end.

 

Is that not also the regulatory position?

 

 

[djpacro]

Etiquette is good, David, but you are also saying that you need to ask the other pilot if he/she has a formation endorsement to taxi behind?

 

At my favourite airfield there is a long taxi on 09/27 to get to 18/36 (nil taxiways) - there can easily be 4 aeroplanes on 09/27 on their way to or from 18/36. Nothing to say that anyone can't decide to use 09/27 for take-off and landing even though we might regard 18/36 as the "duty runway", for example.

 

The regs are quite specific on who has priority and who has to give way in various situations but not all situations are covered. Communication and courtesy are important, as you say.

 

Sometimes people like me inadvertently have the radio on the wrong frequency or headset not plugged in properly and maybe not realise for a while until noticing that no-one responds.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Stewy, did you confirm that your radio was working?? Volume up etc. Regardless, he should have got the ok to backtrack with you.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Etiquette is good, David, but you are also saying that you need to ask the other pilot if he/she has a formation endorsement to taxi behind?At my favourite airfield there is a long taxi on 09/27 to get to 18/36 (nil taxiways) - there can easily be 4 aeroplanes on 09/27 on their way to or from 18/36.

Sometimes people like me inadvertently have the radio on the wrong frequency or headset not plugged in properly and maybe not realise for a while until noticing that no-one responds.

Sorry,

I did not mean to imply that David, I meant that statement to relate to two aircraft simultaneously taking off, not that the following aircraft had to ask if the leading aircraft had a formation endorsement. So I see why you asked the question.

 

In the case of Taree, you have to back track on the active runway which is a big wide peice of brand new bitumen and it is a long way when there is several of you waiting to use it, but I would NEVER follow another aircraft backtracking without requesting and mutual agreement, its bloody stupid in my view. Do you think that is an over reaction.

 

 

[Louis Moore]

Do not know the regs about it, but common airmanship would state he defiantly should have got the O.K to backtrack with you. I guess we do not know if his radio was working, on the right freq etc... but then again I guess that still does not really excuse him for entering the runway with you. If he was unable to contact you he should have just waited until you where clear.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Stewy, did you confirm that your radio was working?? Volume up etc. Regardless, he should have got the ok to backtrack with you.

I agree Andy, if he couldn't raise Stewy on the radio he must wait until the runway is clear before entering it in my opinion.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

CASA consider 'runway incursions' as a serious issue. report should be lodged.

 

 

[skeptic36]

A bigger issue I see is what the hell are you doing using your sons birthday:celebrate: as an excuse to give yourself a present:bash:

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[djpacro]

Runway incursion is only applicable to a towered airport where a clearance is required.

 

 

[David Isaac]

David,

 

What do the regs actually say about two aircraft within the runway boundary, I know you are not clear of the runway until you have passed the gable alignment, and we know you are not supposed to roll until the preceding aircarft has 'cleared' the runway (either taken off or taxied past the gable markers) and you are not allowed to land when a preceding aircraft is still within the runway boundaries.

 

Although we (by mutual agreement) have two aircarft back tracking sometimes and one pulls behind the other at the end of the runway to allow the other to roll ... is that strictly by the book I wonder?

 

 

[Mazda]

A taxi call is not mandatory at CTAF Kaz, at plenty of airports you don't even need a radio. Under the circumstances it would have been prudent to give a call, although it doesn't sound as though there was any risk of collision if he had you sighted the whole time.

 

I would say the most likely reason is that either of you had a radio issue - wrong frequency, wrong radio selected, turned down, radio not working. Even if radio calls are 'mandated', remember there will still be aircraft who don't make radio calls due to errors or broken radios. Who hasn't done it?

 

Unless there is a third party confirmation there is no way of knowing if your radio is working (eg you hear a beep back of an AFRU, someone responds to your call etc).

 

You also can't assume no run-ups were done. They may have been done before you saw the aircraft or they may have been done during taxi - you don't necessarily need to stop to do run ups.

 

 

[redozbris]

Just to Hijack the thread, I was down at the local crosswind landing practice aerodrome a few weekends ago, practicing my attempts at crosswind landings, all going good, the last one I managed to get lift, then sink, then shear, so I put some power in an landed a bit long, so rather than trying a touch and go I thought I would taxi off, and head down the taxi way, gave an all clear call, and this particular aerodrome has one runway, a little peeved about the un-spectacular landing, I taxied off, as I was heading past the bowsers I noticed a twin (some big cesna thing, I suspect a 310?) spooling up and he pulled in behind me, I suspect from the get go, that I was upsetting this particular pilot. Now its no excuse, you should get into the pattern as soon a s practical and safe, and not hold people up, but all of a sudden the sky was full of 172's landing (when I was doing ccts, it was just me myself and one other fellow) then there was me myself, three in pattern, the 310, and one other person behind him.

 

So I thought rather than holding everyone up, There was one chap on late downwind, one fellow had just landed, and one just called crosswind and someone else inbound, so the fellow that had landed had just about got to the end of the runway for the second taxiway, and I called entering and lining up, I motored in, kept and eye on the traffic, and turned around into wind ready to go, The guy on downwind, called turning base, and I knew that the 172 was going to be on me in about 3 minutes, I saw the fellow turn off and gave a rolling call, Then the 310 chimes up 'Jeezus Mate, he hasnt even cleared' then there was silence... he hung up, and the 172 in front of me called cleared all runways, and I was on my roll..

 

I felt bad, as I rushed things, I departed and went home, I was just wondering everyone elses take on this...

 

I've got another interesting question about QLINK flights, recently I flew up to see my relatives up north, a lovely trip, but was a little sore, but hey, brain wasnt compressed to much!, I was about 2nm south of gladstone aerodrome, I called inbound at 10nm, and I thought just because I heard someone key 3 times (and the automated voice message popped up on ctaf about lights turning on) that I suspected there was someone inbound, much faster and heavier than I, so I gave another report stating I was about 3nm to the S/SE of the aerodrome at 2500ft, A friendlish QLINK Pilot keyed up asking me where I was, what I was doing, what the color of my aircraft was, where I was heading, who I was with, what last weeks and this weeks lotto numbers where and my altitute.. ah ha! 'Me' being a smart cookie was flying a hemispherical and according to everything I read was going to be well and truly above anything that they where going to be doing below me.. at 2500ft... he then keyed up, asked me the same lot of questions again, and I filled them out as best I could, but he got a little turse saying that we would be in conflict at 2500ft, and they would have to slow down, not wanting to upset anyone else I kept on moving on quickly, I said, after all this chatting, that I was abeam the aerodrome, heading N/NNW and asked how far they where out (They hadnt made an inbound or anything call), he chimed up stating that they where inbound at 8000ft 20nm away.. ok cool I said.. Motoring along at 120knts trying to get out of here, because he was really un-nerving me. I kept on giving position reports, and I actually turned more NW when I was 2-3nm the other side of town and saw them (and head them) joining crosswind at 2500ish feet... Is this normal ?Just seemed like a lot of altitude to loose to get down to sea level.. but what do I know about flying dash-8's... I suspect they where on a glide path that would have put them at 2000ish feet above the aerodrome and I was stufing things up..

 

Would love to hear peoples input on that...

 

Again sorry to hijack the thread.. This isnt GA Bashing, or other pilot bashing.. just wondering if there is anything I could have done better...

 

 

[redozbris]

Unless there is a third party confirmation there is no way of knowing if your radio is working (eg you hear a beep back of an AFRU, someone responds to your call etc).

I've gotten into the habit of just doing a 'Radio Check' Call, its so hard for most people to resist telling you that your radios working, and you get an idea of whos out there, if you've just turned on (plus isnt it a rule?)

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

So Im gunna guess that the airfield has airfield usage charges that are collected as a result of reviewing the recorded radio calls. I suspect the 172 was simply doing what many in GA "have to" do (by virtue that those who listen to the recordings have access to the registration/owner details to prepare invoices,) while those in RAA, will rarely get usage charges because the same info isnt available to those that process usage invoicing. I wont argue as the morality, or fairness of that for the Airfield owner or the GA sector in general.....Its all been said before, on these forums and elsewhere.

 

Andy

 

 

[Yenn]

Unusual to have problems with Q Link at gladstone. They usually seem to be on the ball and aware of others operating nearby. My strip is 15 miles from gladstone so it needs a quick changeover from the common CTAF to Gladstones 118.8. never been a problem although the Dash 8s often go overhead.

 

 

[Tomo]

I felt bad, as I rushed things, I departed and went home, I was just wondering everyone elses take on this... I kept on giving position reports, and I actually turned more NW when I was 2-3nm the other side of town and saw them (and head them) joining crosswind at 2500ish feet... Is this normal ?Just seemed like a lot of altitude to loose to get down to sea level.. but what do I know about flying dash-8's... I suspect they where on a glide path that would have put them at 2000ish feet above the aerodrome and I was stufing things up..

Would love to hear peoples input on that...

 

Again sorry to hijack the thread.. This isnt GA Bashing, or other pilot bashing.. just wondering if there is anything I could have done better...

I appreciate what you have shared, and for being honest. I'm no expert and can't really help in the way of the legality of things, but in my opinion, if you thought it was safe to roll, you did the right thing. I know that's not a by the book approach, but we do need a bit of common sense in our world. I know some people don't, or forget to call clear runway as well, so you could have been sitting there all day if you went by that. Some people do have a tendency to be verbal about their thoughts over the radio more than others, I would only say something if I thought it was life threatening myself. In your case with aircraft everywhere, you were being wise to do your best for all in my opinion. Just some thoughts as I sit here.

 

Good friend of mine flies Dash 8's in Papua New Guinea, so I can ask him what the descent profile they do if you like, though it's a bit different over there, in some places landing at 6000ft amsl! But I'm pretty sure it is a 1000ft circuit, well we did a pretty low circuit the other day coming into Brisy when I flew in, in a D8! (as passenger)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Some, in fact more than some, owners and jockeys (I won't call them pilots) of expensive aircraft play the game of hustling slower aircraft/students into changing their minds and giving up their rightful place. That group are often "radio whiners" as well, and on some occasions I've noticed ATC's bluffing slower aircraft.

 

Of course, if you fall for it, and stuff up, the blame falls on you.

 

The trick at high density airports is when you identify a high performance aircraft visually or on radio, you put yourself far enough ahead of him so you aren't under his skirt, or you find a way to get behind him.

 

The activity is dangerous, and I consider one instance of it at a major airport which resulted in a fatality as manslaughter.

 

You should have waited for the aircraft to clear, no doubt about that, because it's not unknown for an aircraft to unexpectedly stop and remain on the runway. In fact some of us will recognise a CFI who is renowned for putting the brakes on and sitting for five minutes half on and half off the runway while he debriefs his student.

 

Having said you should have waited, don't feel bad - I'll bet this was due to the needling of the 310, but it is a lesson in human factors for all of us.

 

 

[Stewy]

Yes Motz my radio was working I got a response back from ctaf when giving taxiing call. His radio worked as well but he only used it to let me know he was going to follow me on departure. I could not even read his call sign on side of plane as it was faded to much. Yes bill it was poor form to use my sons birthday as an excuse to go for a fly he he but he liked it

 

Stewy