Am I worried about nothing!

[Wayne T Mathews]

...So I thought rather than holding everyone up, There was one chap on late downwind, one fellow had just landed, and one just called crosswind and someone else inbound, so the fellow that had landed had just about got to the end of the runway for the second taxiway, and I called entering and lining up, I motored in, kept and eye on the traffic, and turned around into wind ready to go, The guy on downwind, called turning base, and I knew that the 172 was going to be on me in about 3 minutes, I saw the fellow turn off and gave a rolling call, Then the 310 chimes up 'Jeezus Mate, he hasnt even cleared' then there was silence... he hung up, and the 172 in front of me called cleared all runways, and I was on my roll..

I felt bad, as I rushed things, I departed and went home, I was just wondering everyone elses take on this...

 

Again sorry to hijack the thread.. This isnt GA Bashing, or other pilot bashing.. just wondering if there is anything I could have done better...

I agree with Tomo's take on this. Red, you said you saw the fellow turn off... Well, that being the case, you knew the runway was clear. So go. The circuit traffic doesn't stop because one bloke is slow making, or forgets to make, a clearing call.

 

The 310's warning (for that is probably what it was intended as) was incorrect, because the traffic had cleared and you could see that. It is possible the 310 couldn't see what you could. A call you could have made after the 310's call along the lines of, "Yes he has," may have put the Cessna's mind at rest. But given the traffic you have described, I would have done what you did, and not cluttered the airwaves with the unnecessary chatter.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sorry Red I missed the part where you'd seen him turn off; I agree with the others on that.

 

 

[Guest pookemon]

If we had to wait for a clearance call at Ballarat before making a call - no-one would be taking off because plenty of the local student pilots (and plenty of the experienced licensed pilots) forget to make them...

 

 

[facthunter]

You are required to visually determine if the runway is clear anyhow. You can't just take the call as evidence.

 

There should never be anything personal on R/T. I was delayed for a while at Canberra one day and asked for the reason for the extended delay. ( Nicely of course). The Tower said "people like you are the reason for the delay" Good example of inappropriate behaviour, for which I believe he should have been disciplined, if not dismissed. When you are sitting there burning heaps of fuel it is reasonable that you should know what is happening. You don't need an uncalled -for insult.. Nev

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

You are required to visually determine if the runway is clear anyhow. You can't just take the call as evidence.

Too true. I have too often observed aircraft landing and calling "Clear all Runways" before crossing the holding point and occasionally before even turning off the runway. The other week, somebody on short final, following the offending aircraft, replied "in about 20 seconds you will be!"

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

A taxi call is not mandatory at CTAF Kaz...

Hmm. Not strictly mandatory unless for safety, however CAAP 166-1(0) item 6.3 lists the six "Expected calls to be made" to comply with CAR 166C, so a view could be taken that if not making the expected minimum calls (which includes taxi), you are unsafe, and therefore it is mandatory.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Hmm. Not strictly mandatory unless for safety, however CAAP 166-1(0) item 6.3 lists the six "Expected calls to be made" to comply with CAR 166C, so a view could be taken that if not making the expected minimum calls (which includes taxi), you are unsafe, and therefore it is mandatory.

That's a very interesting perspective David. I wonder if this would be an incident of the type Bill Hamilton was referring to where CASA may take an interpretive view that it is mandatory if a safety issue could exist ... try and argue you way out of that one legally ... oh and don't forget the cheque book. You could argue that if no other aircraft are present on the strip or in the circuit ... no safety issue exists. You could also argue that if there are two or more aircarft in the circuit or on the strip a potential safety issue could exist.

You know what ... it is probably just better and easier to make the six "Expected calls" ... its also probably safer:augie:

 

 

[turboplanner]

You know what ... it is probably just better and easier to make the six "Expected calls" ... its also probably safer

....and so in one more area Pubic Liability passed quietly from Government responsibility to private individual responsibility......

 

 

[pudestcon]

....and so in one more area Pubic Liability passed quietly from Government responsibility to private individual responsibility......

Would you care to explain your view tp? Do you mean that government regulations have changed from being prescriptive, to giving some discretion to the individual, in this case?

Pud

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

You know what ... it is probably just better and easier to make the six "Expected calls" ... its also probably safer

Well, yes and no David... (don't you just love that decisive step-up to the plate? We don't often get the opportunity to dissagree with young David, and it's not something I do lightly by golly) Given the traffic Red described at the time, giving ALL the "expected calls" could well reduce safety by increasing unnecessary chatter. My take on "the new" circuit calls is that we should make the minimum calls that achieves situational awareness for everyone in the area. I mean to say, under normal circumstances it just isn't necessary to make calls turning downwind, and turning base, and turning final, with a "for touch and go" or whatever tacked onto every one of the calls like some blokes like to do. I don't have a problem with my students doing it for practise when there's no-one else around, but not when the traffic starts to build up. It gets hard for the poor bugger coming in from wherever to give a 10 mile inbound call as an example, if there's 3 or 4 blokes in the circuit chattering like monkeys.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Good call Wayne,

 

I was actually being a little facetious in my response. Clearly making all 6 in a busy circuit requires significant discretion for all the reasons you have said. But you should make the basic safety related ones or WHENEVER a conflict could or does exist, you MUST make a call.

 

Off to the city now ... Oh joy ... NOT

 

 

[poteroo]

Right On, Wayne!

 

Less is More when it comes to radio chatter. The reason we're seeing a proliferation of separate radio frequencies is that the original concept of a single multi-com was wrecked - both by the CASA mandating of so many non-essential calls, and the instructing industrys' belief that pilots needed to tell everyone else in range, exactly what they were doing. Bit like blogging really, giving people a sense of importance and relevance!

 

If the student feels a burning need to make every possible call - have them do it over the intercom only, ie, finger off the mic button!

 

happy days,

 

 

[turboplanner]

Would you care to explain your view tp? Do you mean that government regulations have changed from being prescriptive, to giving some discretion to the individual, in this case?Pud

Yes, where the requirements were prescriptive, and someone made a call at the required location which resulted in an accident, and someone decided to sue the cashed up Government on the grounds that in that particular accident the requirement to make a call caused the accident, or the prescribed phrase in this case caused the accident, the Government would have to pay lawyers for years to defend themselves. By stepping back and requiring you to use a radio in such a way that an accident doesn't occur, the Government is playing no part in the operation so you pay the lawyers and you pay the plaintiffs if you lose.

 

So, if Mr Pud has taken off on a sunny morning, revved the old girl out to 6200 of its 6800 rpm, the temperature is climbing rapidly he's reaching over his head with a screwdriver and in all the blue sky he can't see anyone else and decides not to transmit as he's turning, he's free to do that BUT he doesn't actually have 360 degree vision, and he only allowed a scan for other thrusters and the occasional C172, when down the downwind leg screams Neville the Devil and pulls a round circuit from base to final to "what stopped No 2!" and sees Mr Pud clutching the engine nacelle for dear life, and Neville hits the dirt skinning the shins of Twiggy Forrest, then "Mr Pud failed to use safety standards established over decades of aviation, which, if used, Your Honour, would have warned Mr Devil there was another aircraft in the circuit and given him time for evasive action" and Mr Pud would be paying his $200,000 legal bill, Neville's $200,000 legal bill and damages to Mr Forrest's shins of $140,000.

 

And for those country guys raising the safer to use less transmissions again, you don't convince me; four or five in the circuit is just nice company. I'm sure I can recall getting in all the calls with twelve in the circuit, and I certainly remember being No 5 in final. I agree you'd hate a city airport, but taking it easy out in the country just makes it worse if you get to a regional airport because it won't be coming automatically so there's more chance of screwing up the calls.

 

 

[pudestcon]

Yes, where the requirements were prescriptive, and someone made a call at the required location which resulted in an accident, and someone decided to sue the cashed up Government on the grounds that in that particular accident the requirement to make a call caused the accident, or the prescribed phrase in this case caused the accident, the Government would have to pay lawyers for years to defend themselves. By stepping back and requiring you to use a radio in such a way that an accident doesn't occur, the Government is playing no part in the operation so you pay the lawyers and you pay the plaintiffs if you lose.So, if Mr Pud has taken off on a sunny morning, revved the old girl out to 6200 of its 6800 rpm, the temperature is climbing rapidly he's reaching over his head with a screwdriver and in all the blue sky he can't see anyone else and decides not to transmit as he's turning, he's free to do that BUT he doesn't actually have 360 degree vision, and he only allowed a scan for other thrusters and the occasional C172, when down the downwind leg screams Neville the Devil and pulls a round circuit from base to final to "what stopped No 2!" and sees Mr Pud clutching the engine nacelle for dear life, and Neville hits the dirt skinning the shins of Twiggy Forrest, then "Mr Pud failed to use safety standards established over decades of aviation, which, if used, Your Honour, would have warned Mr Devil there was another aircraft in the circuit and given him time for evasive action" and Mr Pud would be paying his $200,000 legal bill, Neville's $200,000 legal bill and damages to Mr Forrest's shins of $140,000.

 

And for those country guys raising the safer to use less transmissions again, you don't convince me; four or five in the circuit is just nice company. I'm sure I can recall getting in all the calls with twelve in the circuit, and I certainly remember being No 5 in final. I agree you'd hate a city airport, but taking it easy out in the country just makes it worse if you get to a regional airport because it won't be coming automatically so there's more chance of screwing up the calls.

Very well explained Nev Dev. Looks like I better remove the radio from the trusty Thruster with the rev/heat problem.

I don't actually have an issue with discretion being returned to the individual, but I can see where you are coming from.

 

Pud

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Well, yes and no David... (don't you just love that decisive step-up to the plate? We don't often get the opportunity to dissagree with young David, and it's not something I do lightly by golly) Given the traffic Red described at the time, giving ALL the "expected calls" could well reduce safety by increasing unnecessary chatter. My take on "the new" circuit calls is that we should make the minimum calls that achieves situational awareness for everyone in the area. I mean to say, under normal circumstances it just isn't necessary to make calls turning downwind, and turning base, and turning final, with a "for touch and go" or whatever tacked onto every one of the calls like some blokes like to do. I don't have a problem with my students doing it for practise when there's no-one else around, but not when the traffic starts to build up. It gets hard for the poor bugger coming in from wherever to give a 10 mile inbound call as an example, if there's 3 or 4 blokes in the circuit chattering like monkeys.

Well lets see how many calls are really happening if everyone makes the six expected calls, as pertinent to their operations, and doesn't ask about the weather and the time of day or how Fred's Auntie's bunions are going. Remember not every aircraft will be making the six calls unless they all taxi, depart to greater than 10 miles, return and land. That would take some time.

 

In fact for an aircraft doing circuits, once in the air, there is only one "expected" call per circuit.

 

Let's build a scenario:-

 

• Aircraft doing touch and go circuits - Joining call and perhaps a turning base call. Let's assume 8 minutes per circuit. That's two calls per aircraft every 8 minutes. I'm going to assume that the calls aren't rushed, but not staccato either, so about 9 seconds per call. For six aircraft in the circuit, then the CTAF has 23% occupancy.
   
   
  
• Now let's assume that there's new aircraft heading out to do circuits at the rate of 1 every 8 minutes. That is going to add a taxiing, as well as an entering and backtracking call every 8 minutes. At the same time the aircraft doing circuits are getting tired and performing a full stop and exiting the runway at the same rate, so that adds 1 clear of runway call every 8 minutes. We're now up to 28% utilisation of the CTAF.
   
   
  
• Nobody has been arriving yet, so lets have one aircraft arriving for a full stop landing every 8 minutes. That adds a 10 mile call, a joining call and maybe a base call all of which should not exceed 9 seconds each. So now we have a CTAF utilisation at 34%.
   
   
  

 

 

We've now got 60 movements per hour happening with a 34% CTAF occupancy, and there are two optional calls being used in addition to the "expected" ones. 60 movements per hour is very likely to exceed the capacity of one runway (catering to both arrivals and departures) with appropriate spacing between arrivals and time for departing aircraft to backtrack, but I haven't built a model, just done some sums on radio occupancy.

 

The radio will be busy; Certainly, and it may faze new students, but qualified pilots should have no real problems. At 30% occupancy, there will be some calls made over others, but not a lot, and we are using the radio to enhance situational awareness (Alerted see & avoid), not as a substitute for physical observation.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Very well put David. In the example I quoted of 12 aircraft in the circuit that would make it about 60% occupancy. That leaves 40% dead air time. Of course they don't all call in exact sequence so much of that dead airtime gets eaten up at times, but then you get periods of gaps, and that's about the way I see it.

 

White Jabirus doing odd circuits (close in or way out) are not that obvious with full cloud cover, but become very obvious in a turn when the light hits the top of the wings, so a radio call will get you looking at about where they should be turning - much easier and safer.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Good points David and you assume that only the common sense broadcasts are made.

 

What happens to the CTAF occupancy when each PIC broadcasts, turning Xwind, turning downwind, turning base, turning final for touch and go, or turning final runway X for full stop and then followed by a clear of runway call. I have heard this type of repetitive broadcasting and it is totally unnecessary. This is where the congestion problems come in, and I would argue that all of these calls for each pilot in the circit would soon congest the CTAF and you would have to pay attention to each broadcast and fly the plane. I would suggest that at 50% CTAF time use you are at saturation and you would start having repetitive 'talk over' incidents.

 

 

[turboplanner]

David, that may be the way you view it.

 

As a country driver moving to the city, I found every second car was diving in ahead of me, cutting me off.

 

After noticing everyone driving much closer together, I joined in, petrified and frequently panic braking, which in turn annoyed following drivers and led to some close calls.

 

However, after a few months fitting in came naturally.

 

These days, while my country relatives "hate city driving" and tell me we're all "crazy", I'm totally relaxed listening to the radio and reading all the signals of the traffic ahead and behind then reacting in plenty of time.

 

If you are having trouble in a busy CTAF, take a moment to reflect whether the problem is you or the others.

 

Good radio calls by others lower your stress level by reducing the number of aircraft you have to sight.

 

For example, if you are doing circuits and so is another, faster aircraft, behind you, you'll soon identify how many more circuits you've got before he's getting close, and judge when to make a longer leg so he can call the turn before you do.

 

If you are joining a circuit and a Baron calls downwind, you know you need to join downwind well towards the Base turn point and rip through the downwind checks etc, but of it's a C152 you can join almost in front of him (if you are faster) and leisurely get yourself in order, because in both cases you are not going to affect the other aircraft.

 

On the other hand, if no one is speaking you don't really know what the aircraft is in the distance, so your judgement signals are not as good.

 

Time spent at a City airport will hone your radio skills razor sharp. "Ah....Ahs" will be quickly eliminated as you die of embarrassment. Correct phraseology will quickly become the norm, clearing calls will be automatic and instant, and even being on the incorrect frequency will become much more obvious.

 

So out of 7 or 8 in the circuit, you will know the positions of about 5 from their radio calls, and also how they are jostling with each other, so you can either extend a leg to drop behind a conflicting group, or tighten a circuit and rip in ahead of the cluster.

 

Knowing where everyone is means you aren't causing anyone else and problems and they aren't getting under your feet.

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

In fact for an aircraft doing circuits, once in the air, there is only one "expected" call per circuit.

Let's build a scenario:-.....

Well built David. Your scenario demonstrates clearly that it is possible for us to operate safely in a circuit with a bunch of other people if we all keep to the rules. It's when people exceed the rules (in this case, expected calls) that we begin to have the problems David Isaac has portrayed with his examples of unnecessary calls.

 

Turb's point is valid too. Operating at a comparatively busy airport will hone one's situational awareness and radio skills. I'm finding that myself now I'm instructing out of Tamworth and having to mix it with the BAE boys and RPTs. I have to admit though Turbs, 12 in the circuit would be a bit over the top for me. I'd be heading for a cuppa on the verandah until they'd thinned out a tad if there were that many buzzing around.

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

It peaks Wayne towards the end of the hour and at the beginning of the next hour as students change over.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

The biggest problem I find is getting an edge in word-wise... You wait for a gap in the radio traffic, then make your call only to find you are "covered" by another aircraft, so nobody hears either call clearly.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's a skill you learn at high traffic airports, made a lot easier because everyone else is learning the same skill. It's when a City pilot comes out into the country or vice versa that I find most clashes start.

 

 

[pudestcon]

I live for the time when we can get 2 aircraft in the circuit at Wirraway Farm airfield:plane:

 

Pud

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, well I guess giving radio calls for yourself wouldn't be much fun.

 

Just thinking about the differences between city and country airfields another skill you learn quickly is how to hang an aircraft on the prop to slow down and fit in - usually 1 stage of flap and 90 kts on on late downwind will do it, but the slowest forward speed is full flaps, so if you turn final and see two people in front of you, some very inventive dancing at full flap is required to stay up there long enough for both to vacate the runway.

 

That leads to another skill - spot landing so you reach the first taxiway at good rolling speed, but slow enough not to put any strain on the gear in the turn.

 

I've often said GA taught me safe procedures, RA taught me to fly.

 

 

[facthunter]

Just an extra comment on the post by Turbs, Once you are in the circuit in something like a drifter or thruster, the speed variation is not much as a percentage really and you are not in the safest position if you are slow and lose a donk.. These planes tend to do everything at 50 knots. Shortening or extending your circuit (Dist. to run) is more effective. Orbitting CAN be used IF you know where everyone else is, and you are trying to let someone in before you. It's not covered in the rules, so a bit of discussion might be engaged in. Nev