Transferring from RA to LSA/GA Experimental?

[boingk]

Hi there all, I'm currently looking at a craft with the idea of using it to gain hours for my CPL, my current state of licence being just prior (several hours and the actual test) away from PPL.

 

The craft I'm looking at is RA-Aus registered and fairly conventional with trike undercarriage, low-wing monoplane design, all metal construction and the usual ailerons, flaps, rudder, elevator. It is owner designed and built.

 

Would I be able to register such a craft in the Experimental category and use it to gain hours for my CPL? If so, what would the costs be?

 

Cheers - boingk

 

PS: I am aware I can fly an RA craft 100hrs for the '200hr' CPL course.

 

 

[djpacro]

There are some requirements for the aeroplane to be used in the CPL test - something like 120 kt cruise speed and have a manual propeller control. Much of the training can be done in a machine of lower performance with transition to a higher performance machine later. There are additional requirements for an aircraft to be used in training eg dual brakes etc. And you would need enough avionics.

 

I strongly suggest that you talk to the CFI at the school where you plan to undertake the training before you make any commitments. Furthermore, as it "is owner designed and built" suggests some serious consideration by the CFI wrt OH&S requirements. If I was the CFI I would be wary of directing my staff to work in an aeroplane not certified to FAR 23 and extremely wary of a one-off design.

 

Incidentally, from CASA recently:

 

You are correct in that 100 hours of command time in an RA Aus registered group A (3 axis) aircraft can be counted towards 100 hours command time required for a 200 hour commercial only.The hours eligible to be counted are only the hours obtained after being issued with a pilot certificate and not before. As per the definition of recognised flight time in CAR 2(e).

[djpacro]

Of course, now having had morning coffee, I should've mentioned the most important rule limiting training in home-built aeroplanes.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

you can use a #19 for your endorsements

 

 

[Louis Moore]

Hey Boingk,

 

Looks like most people have covered about doing your CPL in an RAA aircraft already, which is good because I have no idea about that side of things! Will do my best to cover the RAA into GA question. Which basically can be summed up as not an easy task.

 

Now I am not positive about going into GA Experimental, you will need to wait to someone who has a more up to date an in depth knowledge about experimental. I think you need to be able to prove the 51% home built rule which I have only seen done the first time the aircraft is registered, never as a re-registration. Are you looking to go that way to keep it in self maintenance?

 

As for standard GA, it will not be an easy, nor cheap task. Basically they have to carry out a full airworthiness check, and issue a new CoA, which runs somewhere between $10,000 to $30,000 as a rough ball park. It can be done but realistically they intend it to be a one way deal, as in RAA never really jumps to GA. If your buying the craft for a long term thing and really want it GA then it might stack up as worth while, if it purely an hour building machine, your probably better off hunting for a cheap GA aircraft or hiring to build them up as opposed to trying for the transfer to be honest.

 

 

[boingk]

Cheers guys, thanks for clearing up the finer points for me. I understand that 'training in homebuilt aeroplanes' is out, but as a PPL holder I would not be 'training' anyone - I would merely be building command hours.

 

On GA Exp it was more of an idea than a real decision - most likely I would be continuing training for CPL with the field I am at and using the RA registered craft to quickly gain hours without restrictions of availability etcetera.

 

Part of my reasoning is that 1 in 3 days I cannot fly because of bookings and on weekends its almost impossible because of the popularity of the field. I personally cannot book ahead reliably because of the nature of my work - I work nights as a bar manager and late nights rule out (safe) early flying. Additionally, I regularly drive/ride distance to see my girlfriend and being able to convert that to flying hours would be a nice bonus. Dont read into that too much, either - I'm dedicated to getting my CPL no holds barred. Everyone else can wait.

 

Cheers - boingk

 

 

[68volksy]

Just worth noting also that charter/airline employers generally do not count RA-Aus hours as worth any salt in the commercial world. If you're looking down the charter route they're usually after a good amount of hours in 120 knot plus machines with constant speed props and the airlines certainly won't count RA-Aus hours.

 

Just a point I thought worth raising if you're looking for employment down the line with a decent organisation.

 

 

[Spriteah]

Also if registered as Experimental GA you cannot perform the maintenance. Must be done by a LAME. Only the original builder can perform maintenance on the aircraft. Once it changes hands I believe it is like any other GA plane and must be maintained accordingly. If I am mistaking on this point please correct me.

 

Jim.

 

 

[Yenn]

Spriteah. You are correct, but there is a move afoot to get that rule changed, but it is aimed more at those who are already qualified to maintain the plane they built, to be able to maintain other planes they might own.

 

I doubt that you could get an RAAus reg plane transferred over to GA very easily or cheaply.

 

You can do training in an experimental that you own, but the problem comes when you try to get an instructor to conduct your training.

 

 

[Guest turk182]

Just worth noting also that charter/airline employers generally do not count RA-Aus hours as worth any salt in the commercial world. If you're looking down the charter route they're usually after a good amount of hours in 120 knot plus machines with constant speed props and the airlines certainly won't count RA-Aus hours.Just a point I thought worth raising if you're looking for employment down the line with a decent organisation.

You may be right about the airlines but I think it may come down to the quality of the pilot, I have a friend who is with QLink right now with around 8-900 of his total time instructing in ultralights

 

 

[poteroo]

You may be right about the airlines but I think it may come down to the quality of the pilot, I have a friend who is with QLink right now with around 8-900 of his total time instructing in ultralights

Agree. It's not as though the first 200 hrs of your career is really all that important. It's a fact that some good cross-country flights are important in your logbook, but really, whether it's at 100 KTAS in a Jab, or 110 KTAS in a C172 or PA-28 isn't really the question. The important thing is that you've successfully navigated big distances over difficult terrain. So, use an RAAus aircraft if you can hire it cheap enough. In the end, the ATO who tests you for CPL probably doesn't know,or indeed care, what your RAAus hours are. He/she will mark you on your performance on the day of test.

 

Whether you should spend big bucks on becoming endorsed on complex R/G + C/S types is debatable. My view is that you should try to use an appropriate 120KTAS + C/S aircraft, which is affordable enough for you to be able to fly it for 30-40 hrs before the CPL test. If you can locate a C172 Hawk, C182, PA28-235 or similar, which may be privately owned, but the owner will give you a good 'dry' hire rate - provided you pay the extra insurance - then you are lucky. Because, after you are properly endorsed, this aircraft will be able to carry you plus 3 'cost-sharing' mates on decent length trips to increase your nav time. Then, when you reach your 200 hrs TT, plus gain your CFI's recommendation, you'll be competent to ace the test.

 

I have doubts about whether 100-150 hr PPL's should be trying to handle aircraft like Beech Bonanzas, C210's, or Piper Lances. Too complex, too fast for pilots who should really be focused on procedures and passing the CPL test. Anyway,you are probably going to start on a C206 somewhere up north, so that's not much of a step-up from the C182 used for CPL. Walk before you run!

 

happy days,

 

 

[68volksy]

I believe there's debate inside CASA at the moment about the use of RA-Aus aircraft in the more advanced licences. They're frowning upon guys who've done very little GA flying trying to pass their Flight Instructor Rating for example however haven't made a final decision as yet. I'd expect them to come down on the "won't accept" side rather than spend copious amounts of time developing policies and deciding which RA aircraft they'll consider and under what circumstances.

 

In the end I think it comes down to common sense - try and fly the planes you want to fly as much as possible. Poteroo's advice above about cost-sharing in bigger machines to build hours makes a lot of sense.

 

 

[boingk]

Thanks for the advice guys, and yeah most of my solo hours so far are navigating cross country in a C150. The field I fly at has a C172 and C172RG - apparently for my CPL they do both CS and RG endorsements, the majority of the time being spent in the non-RG C172.

 

The path I'm being led down through the fellows I'm being instructed by at the moment is to get my 200hr course with a mix of 100hr GA and 100hr RA-Aus, with RA-Aus Instructor ticket and then instructing time thereafter to help with the cost (~$25/hr pay as opposed to ~$180/hr flying cost in a Gazelle). I'm still skeptical about the 200hr inclusion of RA flying time but so long as I end up with a CPL and am flying at a good standard then I suppose I do not mind.

 

Cheers - boingk