Overtaking in the circuit?

[68volksy]

This has come up over the years at the local airfield with a mix of everything from gyros to Citations. I know it gets a lot of traction at other locations also.

 

In my view the answer is a simple "it's pretty much impossible" as all aircraft must overtake on the right-hand side of an aircraft they're approaching from behind. This is a very basic and simple rule that removes a great deal of danger from the process (especially if accompanied by polite radio communication). Need quite a big speed difference between two aircraft for one to overtake another in this manner in the circuit pattern - probably just enough to push the circuit heights apart by 500 feet also.

 

This seems to me a safe and practical solution - what do others think?

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I agree.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Check the CARS Volksy

 

 

[djpacro]

Not quite as simple as it may seem. It is not impossible to do it within the rules.

 

eg at an airfield with right hand circuits - a Pitts, for example, could take off with normal spacing after a Warrior, for example, get to 500 ft first then turn right - i.e. inside the other aircraft with legal spacing.

 

And to provide another discussion point - the same situation with left hand circuits - no overtaking involved - the Warrior is still tracking on runway heading when the Pitts is turning crosswind.

 

(Not saying I do that at uncontrolled airfields. Regardless - communication and courtesy is essential, the rules shouldn't need to be so prescriptive as to cover every situation).

 

 

[facthunter]

It's pretty easy to do somethig rude, and upset people. There are some who do very large circuits. Most aircraft can do a circuit in a similar time. The slow ones more or less run around the fence on a square pattern. Jets go wider and faster and do a racetrack pattern but most should do it in about 6-8 minutes from lift off to touchdown. I would see that as a bit slow, actually, but don't cramp your self till you get pretty proficient. Most people don't time their circuits, but I just mention it in passing. If you are running up the back of somebody, extending downwind is the most effective track change to increase the spacing. Nev

 

 

[av8vfr]

I did ccts (C172) with F111s when at Amberley. Obviously CTA, I was RH ccts and F111 was LH ccts. Difference mainly was I was doing standard ccts and the F111 was going up to Somerset (~25NM) to do an ILS each time...

 

Every cleared to land was "caution, wake turbulence".. Now I wish I got some pics.....

 

I'm pretty sure they could overtake me if they wanted...

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Was talking to a guy today who owns a single seat Yak taildragger, it can climb at 5600 feet per minute. Hard to imaging holding that thing back for a Jab....

 

 

[kaz3g]

I sometimes see a circuit flown almost as though it were a GPS approach the aircraft is so far from the runway! I can't see the point of having the aircraft low (1000' agl) and beyond gliding distance from the best landing site available in the event things go wrong. Even worse if the circuit is above a built area.

 

My home strip has a fly neighbourly requirement that makes the circuit wider than I would otherwise plan. I usually slow the Auster from cruise (100 knots) to V fe (58 knots) late downwind with nil power. I feed a little power back on during the base leg until the turn onto final especially if landing on 35 because there is high ground with power lines to the south.

 

It's reassuring to have a little extra height up your sleeve at that point and it's easy to slip it off if the massive flaps aren't enough. Late final, I feed a little trickle of power back in to smooth the arrival.

 

Kaz

 

 

[David Isaac]

You sound like a smooth Chick Kaz ...

 

 

[68volksy]

It's funny how often the question of overtaking in the circuit degenerates into the "wide circuit" debate. As an avid flyer of wider style circuits i'm more than happy to stand up for the practice. Under constant pressure from what i'd been reading and what people had been telling me i was constantly trying to make my circuits tighter. It got to the stage where it was getting stupidly dangerous (not his words) according to my instructor so he had me fly what he termed his "standard" circuit. After 30,000 hours of flying circuits (with 14000 in Warriors/Cherokees) I was inclined to trust him. Now flying a circuit in the Warrior is a simple and extremely pleasant experience with plenty of time for everything to happen and speed adjustment. Except for when someone tries to cut me off and I can't see them! I'm more than happy to do my downwind leg at 110kts if i'm holding someone up and on a couple of occasions have done just that.

 

No matter how hard you try the 6-8 minute circuit time mentioned above has to be pretty much spot on. I average about 7 minutes for my circuits.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

wow, 30000 hours of circuits... Thats a lot of circuits...dam...

 

 

[68volksy]

Sorry - 30,000 hours flying not circuits - although that was how my pre-solo era felt...

 

Not bad for a guy with no airline experience though.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's give or take Volksy. I was brought up at Moorabbin in very heavy traffic so at times it is necessary to slow the aircraft down so you don't run over the person in front, or expedite so you don't get in the way of someone faster, particularly those flying twins who seem to believe they own the airways and will tell you about it. After a while you get to judge spacing quite well from the radio calls and observation of where people are in the circuit, so you can extend a leg, shorten a leg, pull on some flap, hit the gas and pretty much get through a whole session of circuits without any interruptions.

 

In fact the aim at an airport like Moorabbin is to fit in to the pattern without disturbing the big whirlwind of aircraft, so some days you may be doing tight circuits and others, slightly bigger.

 

Country airports are a whole different experience I agree because you don't get that culture of dealing with a heavy circuit load, so you have more people who don't understand the need to extend, pull on flap etc to stay in line.

 

If you find yourself trying 100 kt downwinds someone has made a wrong judgement.

 

Good Warrior circuits (which I think you've adopted) are not the "wide" ones people criticise, if you're in the circuit and look out and see a C152 parallel half a mile out that's wide, and he's going to come in on base and scare the hell out of the person behind you. A Warrior circuit would be about the same as a typical 210 or twin, hence I'm suggesting the problem is not with you, but with people who need more circuit pattern training.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

I have overtaken people in the circuit, but always ask first, I wouldn't ask if I am going to delay the other aircraft.

 

Was talking to a guy today who owns a single seat Yak taildragger, it can climb at 5600 feet per minute. Hard to imaging holding that thing back for a Jab....

Now that is some serious horsepower...

 

 

[David Isaac]

Well there you go, I have never actually timed it, but have always mentally thought about 8 to 10. So I guess next time I will time a few and see.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Apart from the legal aspect, the reason your radio call includes aircraft type is so everyone understands the expected performance, improving SA.

 

 

[Louis Moore]

Volksy the reason I think you will find people here push for close circuits is the majority of pilots seem to fly predominantly RAA. With out the inertia of the heavy planes ultraights really tend to glide very steeply, meaning you need to keep rather close to the runway to glide into it after an engine failure.

 

Warriors glide surprisingly well and you can take a fairly wide circuit without ever worrying about not gliding back. I proved that point once with an instructor who kept telling me to haul it in closer while in an Archer during a test flight to join a syndicate group. He had not flown the Archer much himself and I kept telling I was more comfortable with the wider circuit in this aircraft. Eventually he got so annoyed he said "Fine I will show why it is so dangerous to fly such a bloody wide circuit!" after pulling the power he added "now lets so how far away your going to crash from the runway". I calmly went through the glide procedure, flew the rest of circuit and still required a lot of slip to hit the runway close the threshold.

 

Do not be intimidated by what you hear all the time, every aircraft is different and us such every circuit size will vary accordingly. As a side question, where are you learning to fly?

 

 

[Bill Hamilton]

Facthunter,

Where oh where did you get that idea, a "jet" is just another aeroplane, and flies a square circuit, just like everybody else ---- usually at 1500' downwind, often 1000', but may be a low as, say, 700' if you are doing a "bad weather" circuit, ie; the visual circling segment of an approach. I will admit that, at 700', with restricted visibility, the "square base" is not too long.

 

Cheers,

[facthunter]

Of course a jet is just another aeroplane. You may have flown square circuits but I never have. The bad weather circuit was done as low as 600'. Nev

 

 

[HeadInTheClouds]

Hmm just had a look back at my first solo circuit video, just about 5 minutes from takeoff to touchdown. Strikes me as incredibly short given the above times but then again with 1POB in the Foxbat it climbed like a crazy beast, and I tend to fly slightly tighter circuits where final is more or less done at completely idle power, if I'm too high then a mild bit of sideslip solves all problems.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Bill,

 

Nev probably wont dignify that with an answer and he will probably shoot me for saying this.

 

Nev used to fly the bloody things, he is older than you, so old that he used to fly those bloody old airliners that had four of those round engines on them you know the ones that ran on purple 130 Octane Avgas before he flew jets.

 

He flew for a couple of airlines that no longer exist.

 

He is no mans fool and the point he was making is that jet aircarft should be higher and fly therefore wider and tend not to fly a square circuit. We all know you can fly a 747 in a square circuit at 700 ft you just have to watch out that the wing tips don't take of the TV antennas on the steep turn onto final ... .

 

His point is that he is generally giving advice to RAA people as to what to expect in the circuit where they may mix with jets.

 

If the weather is that bloody bad that you are flying a 747 at 700 feet down wind I doubt we would be flying mate.

 

Nev's credibility is absolutely beyond reproach so please take it easy ... you possibly know him and if not certainly should ... he is a consummate gentleman.

 

Sorry Nev, I'll shut up now.

 

 

[Bandit12]

I heard a rumour that the Southern Cross wasn't actually purchased in the USA before being flown in the first Trans-Pacific flight home to Australia. I heard that it was purchased in Australia and ferried there by Nev so that Sir Charles could fly it home and look good - ever the professional, Nev won't even admit that the first Trans-Pacific flight was him!

 

 

[turboplanner]

David, you were doing well until you reached the gentleman part.

 

Bandit, not many people know this, but he was Orville Wright's Instructor.

 

 

[Bandit12]

Obviously wasn't Wilbur's instructor then, because he didn't make it to a ripe old age!

 

 

[David Isaac]

You're bloody idiots all of you .....