Overtaking in the circuit?

[Bill Hamilton]

---- tend not to fly a square circuit.

 

David (and Nev)

 

That is a generalization about jets that simply isn't true , and I strongly object to the continual statements I see that, somehow, having a turbine engine, instead of a turboprop or piston engine, and suddenly it's all different. The only thing that really differentiates "jets" from the rest is how easy the engines (and the aeroplanes) are to operate --- no propellers eliminates lots of problems and potential problems, modern turbine engines with FADEC controls are almost pilot proof.

 

Even in terms of speed, various "jets" are not necessarily all that much faster (if at all) than some of the bigger piston twins and turboprops in the circuit --- even if it is a lot faster than most RAOz registered aircraft.

 

Nev, I have no idea who you are or who you worked for, but my time also goes back to round engines, but only two off, before I went to first generation "jets", but the company also had DC-4 and L-188s, guess what, all square circuits.

 

In each type I have operated, and regardless of whether the aircraft was VH-, G- or N registered , the standard circuit was always a square circuit ( and I have worked for more than one airline in more than one country) , so it seems to me that your experience is not the norm,

 

Indeed, the AU AIP (and the FAA Aeronautical Information Manual, and the UK equivalent) standard circuit diagram shows a square circuit, and the only thing that changes the suggested height downwind is the speed of the aircraft ---- no mention of the type of engine ---- and this is as it should be ------ and is generally accepted in every country in which I have operated, and that's quite a few.

 

As to the visual circling segment of an IAP, I fly the height on the chart. All I said was "say 700", some are lower, many much higher for a Cat. C or D aircraft.

 

Cheers,

 

 

[facthunter]

I have never made any special deal about "jets" either Bill. Their ease of operation ( It's supposed to be kept a secret among us), is well known by anyone who flys them . Engine management is minimal. Managing four radials in icing conditions needs someone with about 4 pairs of hands

 

The standard circuit is a rectangular one, There is no doubt about that. A standard circuit is something you relate to but hardly ever do in real life in airlines, especially if they fly big stuff, and not feeder runs

 

At major airports, most approaches are vectored or aided by instruments for guidance. Even if you do a go-around you, chances are, won't fly a standard circuit. You will be vectored and probably go off the airport frequency.

 

The "rounded end" Circuit ( my words) is the most compact possible with a bank angle limitation applying and is perhaps the most difficult to judge, at least initially. I believe it was well accepted and probably the norm when I operated.

 

The thrust of my comment was relating to and fitting in with other traffic in the circuit, and what you might expect from other aircraft, and the point i was trying to make was in relation to the time in the circuit being quite similar for all types over a wide speed range, even though the speeds flown vary widely,. and their tracking varies as a consequence.

 

In reality, fitting in with big jets is not something that most U/L pilots would have to give much thought to, but I was trying to make a point of principle. Nev

 

 

[kaz3g]

You sound like a smooth Chick Kaz ...

More like an old broiler, I'm afraid :-)

 

Or a turkey!

 

I tried to do a half decent glide approach in an Aerobat yesterday and found myself miles too high despite coming down sideways. Had stuffed up the electric flaps, hadn't I... Had them retract again, didn't I? Wasn't watching, was I?

 

Next try was to be a powered approach onto the marked section of the strip (club competition). Almost perfect except it was actually a glide approach again and I didn't apply the bee's dick of power needed to scrape in past the first line. Missed maximum points for that one by THAT MUCH!

 

And the boys had used all the balloons so I couldn't have chased one even if the CBs hadn't started marching towards the field.

 

I had forgotten how hard these modern things with tricycle undercarriages and electric thingies are to fly!

 

Kaz

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

The jet guys I see at Williamtown don't seem to have any 'wings level' segments in their circuit once they start their base turn!

 

I love watching the precision, I think we civvies should be aiming to achieve the same, or as close as our skill level will allow.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

The jet guys I see at Williamtown don't seem to have any 'wings level' segments in their circuit once they start their base turn!I love watching the precision, I think we civvies should be aiming to achieve the same, or as close as our skill level will allow.

Sounds like a "pitch and recover" landing which is quite common in the military. Either performed as a 180 degree descending turn from down wind onto the piano keys, or as a 360 degree descending turn onto the piano keys from a straight-in approach at low level.

It is the quickest way to get multiple aircraft onto the ground, quickly. We employ the technique as part of formation flying to get the formation onto the ground in smooth sequence. Each aircraft pitches out of formation at a pre-determined interval and follows the aircraft ahead. If not performed correctly, wake turbulence is a significant hazard.

 

 

[ahlocks]

I'm rather partial to just landing the thing without all the wooptie doo. Might have to fly as tight as a fish's ring sometimes or extend out on a cross country downwind on others. It's all part of the fun IMHO.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just because you've seen the Shuttle smartie.

 

 

[ahlocks]

Just because you've seen the Shuttle smartie.

Reckon he'd get the schitts if I cut him off on base?!

 

 

[HeadInTheClouds]

The jet guys I see at Williamtown don't seem to have any 'wings level' segments in their circuit once they start their base turn!I love watching the precision, I think we civvies should be aiming to achieve the same, or as close as our skill level will allow.

Virgin and Qantas guys tend to eliminate the concept of base leg when landing on 21 at Coffs, they get to the end of downwind and make a steepish 180 degree turn straight onto final. Well they have all the times I've flown at least.

 

Edit: An example

 

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

Reckon he'd get the schitts if I cut him off on base?! ]

Ya reckon???

 

I might be wrong, but I reckon anyone who'd 'ave cut that big fellah off on base woulda been lookin' for a new ring gear, eh? Wouldn't matter where he landed, there'd be folks there waiting to chew on the butt of anyone who'd interfered in any way with THAT flight... And so it should be...

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Reckon he'd get the schitts if I cut him off on base?!

No, but you'd probably get 'schott'...

 

 

[turboplanner]

Can you just imagine the Headlines "HISTORIC SCHUTTLE FLIGHT SCHUNTEDE BY WAGGA WAGGA RIVET MUNCHER"

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Edit: An example

Geez that circuit went on forever, I'm surprised somebody didn't cut them off!