Another Jab bites the dust.

[motzartmerv]

Our J160 suffered an engine failure on takeoff yesterday afternoon. It gave no indication it was about to pack it in. My junior Instructor (I_Like_planes) was doing circuits with a student.

 

At about 200 feet it started running ruoughly and vibrating, then over the next 4 or 5 seconds it lost power and started misfiring badly with a heavy knocking noise. He did a hell of a job to get it down safely, using what power that was left to clear a row of trees and a power line before dumping all the flap and sideslipping into the paddock. The ground was very soft and the nose wheel dug in tipping it up onto a wing. Both he and the student escaped with nil injuries.

 

The aeroplane has been maticulously maintained by the book. Im not sure what the issue is yet, im about to go and have a look with the engineer.

 

Im proud as punch of the job my young bloke did, we train pretty heavily in this emergency area, at least once a month I do an hour of dual with all my instructors and we focus heaps of attention to engine failures on upwind particularly on the runway he was using. He did evrything by the book and deserves a pat on the back.

 

For some reason he went to the pub last night.. hehe

 

cheers

 

 

[Tomo]

Well done Cory, and Motz for the training. Though it shouldn't have happened, it's better to prepared than not at all. All the more credit to you and your school.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Well done Motz and Cory, fortunate it wasn't a student on first solo I suppose..................................Maj...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Just had a look. The through bolt on number 3 has failed.

 

 

[Hongie]

Wish they would address the issue! Seems a few jabs going down... Pity, being an otherwise good Aussie product

 

 

[winsor68]

Good work Jaspers Crew. Bad work Jabiru.

 

 

[turboplanner]

....using what power that was left to clear a row of trees and a power line before dumping all the flap and sideslipping into the paddock. The ground was very soft and the nose wheel dug in tipping it up onto a wing.

"The through bolt on number 3 has failed."

 

Sooner or later, either a student is going to face that situation, and may not react as well, or the row of trees and power line will be higher, or the paddock will contain a deep ditch ...... the list goes on, and we will have a fatality.

 

This issue has gone on and on for years, with regular forced landings featuring in the monthly magazine.

 

It doesn't say much for the administration of RAA

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Some issues are much too difficult to address. Good to hear that no one was hurt.

 

 

[Louis Moore]

Sounds like they did an excellent job. Well done to those guys involved and the people teaching them. Goes to show with the proper training and re-currency checks people are able to handle even the most adverse situation safely. Bet your glad you do that training with your guys Merv, well worth it.

 

"The through bolt on number 3 has failed."Sooner or later, either a student is going to face that situation, and may not react as well, or the row of trees and power line will be higher, or the paddock will contain a deep ditch ...... the list goes on, and we will have a fatality.

 

This issue has gone on and on for years, with regular forced landings featuring in the monthly magazine.

 

It doesn't say much for the administration of RAA

Don't want to be a pot stirrer but seems a bit pessimistic to me Turbo and also overlooking the fact that a well trained and prepared pilot was able to asses the risk of the power lines, paddocks and tress and put it down safely. Sounds to me like he made the perfect choice and really flew the aircraft down, did not just a fluke it and walk away!

 

If the obstacles in the path where higher, or there was a big ditch in the paddock in this situation I would think the pilot would have opted for another landing zone and still survived.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes tubz. I'm hearing you. Infact the lesson before this one could have well been a solo student. We make sure they are fully competent on forced landings from anywhere in the circuit, but Cory really had to do some fancy flying to pull this one off. Very concerning for me for obvious reasons. I've pretty much had a gutfull of jabiru. We are all taking bets at the moment as to what blame jabiru are going to put on us for the failure. Good luck, my engineer is a navy mechanic and does evrything by the book. Strictly by the manual. He doesn't know any other way.

 

Anyone got any rota powered acft they want to put online with a good school?

 

 

[pudestcon]

Well done to the instructor for a good result. How is the student feeling?

 

Jabiru must take heed soon, surely? I believe this issue has the potential, apart from possible drastic personal devastation, to bring down the company if the worst was to happen.

 

Pud

 

 

[facthunter]

A good illustration of how thorough training pays off. Good work chaps. I can't see how this reflects on RAAus though. If we are suggesting that the jabiru should be removed from the list of suitable planes for training in, this would be too large a step, in my view.

 

I'm not condoning the engine state of reliability at all. I accept that your man has done everything by the book and that this shouldn't have happened, but engine failures can always occur and because of the strain on the engine, is more likely to happen at take-off.

 

I believe these bolt failures are a detonation issue and have always said so. It's certainly the most likely cause. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

And around and round we go.

 

I looked at the frequency of this failure as represented in the monthly magazine over the past two or three years, and walked away from the engine and the aircraft.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Maybe a couple of the dud engines thrown through Jaba's front window would get there attention to fix these continual problems.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Jabiru are putting their profits first. I suspect it will take a expensive litigation to resolve the issue...

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Yes tubz. I'm hearing you. Infact the lesson before this one could have well been a solo student. We make sure they are fully competent on forced landings from anywhere in the circuit, but Cory really had to do some fancy flying to pull this one off. Very concerning for me for obvious reasons. I've pretty much had a gutfull of jabiru. We are all taking bets at the moment as to what blame jabiru are going to put on us for the failure. Good luck, my engineer is a navy mechanic and does evrything by the book. Strictly by the manual. He doesn't know any other way.Anyone got any rota powered acft they want to put online with a good school?

 

Hi re "I've pretty much had a gutfull of jabiru" If flying a Jab engine was a gun game it would be called "Russian Roulette". Joke aside I agree they need to take a review of the situation as its a big worry for the respective owners.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

have the insurance companies tweaked onto this yet? If it keeps happening jab powered aircraft premiums will go throught he roof compared to 912 or they will soon say sorry no we don't insure jab engined A/C.

 

 

[planesmaker]

Great job on the training side of things, so good no injuries, suggest when you get it repaired ask Jabiru to make up a Rotax mount for it, might make them think about finally fixing the ongoing problem. Fantastic aeroplane with a rotax.

 

 

[facthunter]

It's virtually impossible to insure two-stroke powered trainers. I'm sure the insurers will be noting the figures. On the other side of the equation, the airframe is probably one of the most repairable out there, and at the lowest price. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea. I love the aircraft . It's a good solid trainer. I have major issues with the quality control and the service provided by the factory. I have had 3 online for a number of years and have dealt with every conceivable problem that could be imagined. I've given up dealing with them directly. We just get the problem sorted without their help. I could write a long list of QC issues we have had over the years. My favorite was a brand new propellor that let go of it's leading edge after a 5 min ground run.

 

 

[facthunter]

Well, A jabiru only forum should be full of good advice and questions. If someone has some fixes and mods that work they should be shared.

 

It is about time for some serious examination. About 8 years ago (from memory) I heard the NZ equivalent of CASA were looking hard at the certification of the motor(s). They obviously got past that. They numbers of engine outs can be counted assuming they all get reported. One would assume most are.

 

Jabiru's are out there being used and there are a LOT of them, being used privately and for training. Some of them are worked on by their owners and some are done by L2'S, LAME's. There is some variation in the way they are installed/set up Generally the jabiru requires more adjustments/ spannering than it's main competitor whose strong point would be that the basic engine does not need much tinkering with.

 

It would appear that the reliability is approaching that of some two strokes. I say appear. There is a wide range of engine reliability being experienced out there. Some owners get what could be satisfactory service and some nowhere near it. I'm not drawing any conclusions or attempting to lay any blame here.

 

Most of the two stroke aircraft fly a fair bit slower than the Jabiru or other aircraft to which Jabiru are fitted. The jabiru aircraft generally require a fair bit of skill to handle in an engine out situation at low level.

 

Failures could be compared on a per hour of use basis across brands. Anything other than on a hour used basis doesn't form a valid comparison. You could use hours before TBO etc but that complicates things.

 

What do others think? Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

Firstly, "Well done", to the instructor, now I have a few questions.

 

Why, if the opinion of Jabiru engines is so low, do people use them for training at all? I do recall a conversation with one of my earlier instructors, where he told me how when he was working with a school using Jabirus. He would never send a student solo in one before being competent with enine failures in all phases of flight, because the engine failure rate was high. He went on to say that he did actually have a student that experienced an engine failure on their first solo, and it was handled correctly with no further incident.

 

I will say now that I am a low hour pilot, and that my training was spread out over significant time. In that time my training was also spread out over various schools and instructors. Some (very few) taught me to stay close enough to be able to reach the strip (in case of engine failure) at all times during the circuit. While to me this seems like common sense, some instructors I've had, despite having excellent handling skills, do not consider this prudent. I fix aircraft for a living and I know that any mechanical device can let you down, and usually at the worst possible moment.

 

Is there a reason for not teaching student to stay within reach of the strip during the circuit?

 

Why is it difficult to insure two stroke trainers? I'm quite sure that I read recently in an RAA mag, about how they have a greater number of two stroke powered aircraft on the register, yet more engine failures have been occurring in four stroke engines. Is this Jabiru inflating the figures, or are rotax two strokes just reliable?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I don't know, you would have to ask an instructor that doesn't keep tight circuits.;)

 

 

[Guernsey]

Through Bolts, Through Bolts, Through Bolts.

 

Change them and to hell with Jabirus warranty.

 

Life does not have a warranty.

 

Alan.

 

 

[RKW]

Through Bolts, Through Bolts, Through Bolts.Change them and to hell with Jabirus warranty.

Life does not have a warranty.

 

Alan.

Alan,your suggestion would probably solve the problem but unfortunately can't be applied to a certified aircraft. The next best option would be to use the new 7/16 threaded thru-bolts. Potentially an expensive exercise requiring the holes in the cylinder flange to be reamed out and the two crankcase halves separated to replace the studs and new dowels fitted.