Engine Failed, No radio, within gliding distance to airfield

[68volksy]

Just posing a hypothetical for discussion:

 

There's a lot of people who recommend always flying a circuit within gliding distance of the airfield. Just wondering whether people might still consider this the safest option if the engine failure also takes out your radio? Outside controlled airspace of course...

 

 

[robinsm]

Lets see, prang the plane and die outside the airfeild because I could not get to a known safe landing area, or upset a pilot on circuit because I cut in front of him. Hmmmmm....die or get shouted at, hard choice eh?

 

As my instructor always said, AVIATE first (in other words fly the damn thing under control), Navigate, get where you want to be (in this case down), and then worry about the radio.

 

 

[68volksy]

That was my first thought also. Part of 'aviating' is avoiding obstacles though wouldn't you say? So then I thought of the risk of taking another aircraft down with you - or not being able to do anything about an aircraft lining up or backtracking. All well and good making it back to the runway but what about the aircraft on late final and the one about to roll? Couldn't care less about cutting someone off in this instance but it scares me that I probably wouldn't know about it (or how close we came) until everything was back in the hanger.

 

It's interesting these responses are exactly the responses an old instructor I was talking to told me he used to always get. His feeling was that people get into the habit of trying to make it back to the airfield (a good option perhaps) and fail to see any other perfectly suitable (in some cases better) sites elsewhere.

 

 

[Ultralights]

I'm quite sure a pilot who saw you cut them off would soon learn you had an engine failure when you stop on the runway and don't move, and sees a stationary prop when he goes around. And will forgive you.

 

I have had a smoke in the cabin issue just as I turned downwind, turned everything off at the master, and made an emergency landing in the opposite direction on the runway we just left from, pilot on short final went around, I'm sure he knew what the problem was as we exited the aircraft followed by a cloud of smoke.we shut the engine down as soon as we landed of course, once we were sure there was no fire, we then pushed the aircraft onto a taxiway. No one complained, though about 3 aircraft went around in the time we took up the runway.

 

 

[damkia]

IIRC this scenario is covered under the CASA rules regarding radio operation into uncontrolled aerodrome, although not specifically during engine failure.

 

I seem to recall something about rocking your wings to indicate a radio failure??? Does this sound right? (it was 18 yrs ago....)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

An engine failure that takes the radio out would be a pretty serious and rare event id imagine. Most people dont manage to get a call out anyway from a low altitude engine failure. Id be pretty upset with someone who wasted mental energy on

 

a call untill evrything else was sorted first, and a big part of that would be avoiding traffic. Ive had two total engine failures in the cct and on both occasions the cct was quite busy. Both times i managed a quick call but it was pretty late in the peice. Like the others say, aviate, navigate then communicate.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

'Scusie, coming though!'

 

I seem to remember something about flashing your landing light at the tower. Get a red or green light in return and rock wings to acknowledge light.

 

but yes aviate, navigate then communicate.

 

 

[facthunter]

Having the airport available to land on would be a minuscule part of your total flying time (unless you do circuits only). It's a luxury IF it is available. There are (times = places) in the circuit where a landing on the runway would not be assured. and if you don't make it, particularly if you are flying downwind, you might have better considered other options.

 

 

[robinsm]

I agree FH, but then part of your situational awareness would be planning for an engine out and having a landing place in the back of your mind at all times. Volksy did mention that this was an in circuit discussion but maybe it could be expanded with his permission?

 

 

[68volksy]

I do like the idea of keeping the options open. Not so concerned about getting into trouble with others in the circuit as I am about not smashing into them...

 

I do like the trend of the robinsm and fh line of thinking. I can see a great deal of danger in always having the "if I have an engine failure in the circuit I will glide back to the runway" mentality in your head. Engine failure after take-off is pretty standard - there's not much wiggle room on that one. Engine failure on downwind is a whole different ball-game though - there's certainly a great deal of the downwind leg where you'd probably not try to make it back.

 

I'm happy for the discussion to lead wherever it might. Having a landing place in your mind at all times is most certainly the best option. Talked to a couple of instructors about this (who've managed to handle a couple of engine-outs without a hassle) and they both said they've always got an option in their mind.

 

 

[facthunter]

robinsm, agree with that. PLAN every take-off. ( but people don't).

 

I know one instance of a turn back ( with Damage and injury), where the pilot said something like. I knew that I shouldn't have done it but it was like an instinctive thing to do. The action was done before it was fully assessed.

 

If we over emphasis the "ability to glide to the field from everywhere in the circuit", don't we run the risk of this sort of reaction happening?

 

If you land short of most aerodromes you're not in good shape and you are better off to hit the far fence, ( or any object) at walking speed than the near (fence or tree) at flying speed. ( Or lose control of it in a turn) trying to reach the runway. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Agreed Nev. This black and white thinking that we are all subject to during training soon come unstuck when the proverbial hits the fan.

 

 

This guy did a hell of a Job, I feel that it was stalled in the turn perhaps but it demonstrates a real world situation where the runway wasnt made but at least the area was clear. Airfields are generally the clearest area and where your most likely to receive help should you need it. Even with a tailwind and not getting to the runway, the path of least resistance should be the instinctive thing to aim for..If thats the airfield then great, if its not, then go for something that is relatively clear.

 

IMHO knowing the aircraft is essential, knowing the field is desirable.. Practice practice practice. Cross strips are fantastic if your lucky enough.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I note in the above video, the turn to align with the runway was quite excessive. Perhaps a fixation on the runway where straight ahead looked pretty clear (hard to say for sure when your not in the acft) but leveling off and taking the grass would be a more desirable alternative. Fixation on the keys should be 'trained' out I reckon. Take the strip sideways if you have to..

 

(and keep the bloody nose down)

 

 

[facthunter]

Surprised at all the talking. The effort should go into the flying. Nev

 

 

[Mazda]

Forget the radio, just fly the aeroplane.

 

Light signals won't help either - red light or not, you are landing.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

If the runways blocked, or an aircraft is on opposing final, use the grass next to the runway, or even a vacant taxiway, do whatever you have to get a safe outcome.

 

The video is a great example of that.

 

 

[facthunter]

In an emergency like an engine failure you have precedence over just about anything else. You will have to justify your actions should you muck it up and cause disproportionate damage to other parties, or put THEM in serious jeopardy. Often you cannot do the right thing without breaking some rule. You can't let this prevent you from making the right decision. The judgement of that may simply end up being "it worked out ok so you made the right decision", but don't count on it. They have been known to go for people for a long time, even put them out of business. Nev

 

 

[68volksy]

If the runways blocked, or an aircraft is on opposing final, use the grass next to the runway, or even a vacant taxiway, do whatever you have to get a safe outcome.

Can I add "or the paddock straight ahead" to the above list? I think it wise not to limit your options to the airfield - especially if it's busy. I think it safer to pick a spot in the following order if the field is busy: 1. safe paddock straight ahead or off to the right of path of travel 2. safe paddock directly alongside the airfield (overflying field and staying on the dead side) 3. airfield or taxiway. Basically staying out of the way of everything you don't know about as much as possible.

 

 

[facthunter]

Always consider the effect of the existing wind. IF you are landing near trees/houses the turbulence may make control difficult at lower heights. You are generally not used to landing in that situation. Maintaining control is essential for good results, and downwinds are fast, when there is significant wind strength.

 

Get your instructor to have you do a practice downwind landing when the wind is at about 15 knots on your tail. You don't have to actually land it to find out the difference. You'll pick up airspeed near the ground, and float forever . Work out why..Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

A reduction in tailwind component?

 

 

[kaz3g]

Always consider the effect of the existing wind. IF you are landing near trees/houses the turbulence may make control difficult at lower heights. You are generally not used to landing in that situation. ... Get your instructor to have you do a practice downwind landing when the wind is at about 15 knots on your tail. You don't have to actually land it to find out the difference. You'll pick up airspeed near the ground, and float forever . Work out why..Nev[/quoteClose to the ground your ground speed should decrease and yr airspeed increase because of the friction-induced windshear but, with 15 knots up yr tail it will still be a hell of an exciting landing in a tail dragger!

 

And take up LOTS of runway...

 

Kaz

[facthunter]

I'll wait a while, Andy. It's the distance you float kaz. let alone the difficulty of keeping your tailwheeler straight with a wind from behind Nev

 

 

[nathan_c]

On my practice cable break during glider training I turned around and landed back on the runway, and while I carried a little bit too much speed which didnt help the cause, the excess runway used with a tailwind is astonishing.

 

 

[Piet Fil]

I'd guess that as you descend into the slower boundary layer of air near the ground, from your faster moving parcel of air above this layer, your inertia will keep your momentum up hence your airspeed will increase (ie your plane is moving faster relative to the outside air), then the increase in airspeed will increase lift therefore the longer float.

 

I passed fluid dynamics many years ago so I hope I am remembering correctly

 

Phil

 

 

[facthunter]

Phil, You win the cigar!

 

Note the purpose of doing the exercise.( the downwind landing, at something like that windspeed) is to show the student what they are up against if they do this. NOT to teach them how to do it.

 

Thanks also to the other contributors.

 

That doesn't stop anyone else, from commenting or sharing their experiences. Nev