Stall Training

[djpacro]

"BUT I find the lack of knowledge of SOME newly qualified pilots under the RAA rules leaves a lot to be desired."

.........

Not at all surprising, because I have ceased to be surprised at the lack of often quite basic knowledge in interviewing professional pilots for various purposes, either recruitment or audits.

 

When I find an instructor who has never done a full stalling sequence all the way through training, and has never does more than a very tentative approach to the stall, has never done spins and recovery, let alone aerobatics, and transfers his or her fear of more than the most basic maneuvers to the student, is it any wonder we have a standards problem. Look at the handling problems revealed in recent ATSB reports of airline incidents.....

Very disappointing to say the least.Students must know some stuff prior to first solo. CASA's Day VFR Syllabus has a code "A" for essential knowledge at specific stages of training and code "B" for important knowledge. Code "C" for additional knowledge - pre-PPL background info only and PPL just the basic principles.

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/fcl/download/vfras03.pdf

 

Furthermore - the essential knowledge items "Must be known completely relates directly to the safety of the aeroplane and occupants" and the important items "Must be known in considerable depth relates to the efficient and practical operation of an aeroplane.".

 

As for stalling, it clearly states that the following are ESSENTIAL items of knowledge which must be learnt prior to the first solo flight and is required knowledge for ALL SUBSEQUENT PHASES of training.

 

1. the symptoms when approaching a stall
    
    
   
2. characteristics of a stall
    
    
   
3. the effect of using ailerons when approaching and during the stall
    
    
   
4. why an aeroplane may stall at different speeds
    
    
   
5. the effect of a number of variables on the level flight stall IAS
    
    
   

 

 

Added knowledge items prior to the first area solo are: another ESSENTIAL item:

 

1. differentiate between a spin and a spiral dive and be able to describe the standard recovery technique for each (per the CASA Flight Instructors Manual) - with an important note that the student should (I would think the word has to be "must" but CASA uses "should") be advised to follow the techniques recommended in the pilot's operating handbook.
    
    
   

 

 

Plus a single IMPORTANT item of knowledge - the manoeuvres during which an aeroplane may stall at an angle which appears to be different to the true stalling angle.

 

Students therefore get tested on this stuff prior to solo and first area solo and then in the BAK exam.

 

Now for the flying with the basic objective being to achieve the required standard of competency:

 

Code 2 is the standard required for Private Pilot as detailed in the Day VFR Syllabus (Aeroplanes). At intermediate stages of training a lesser standard may be appropriate:

 

Code 3 is able to achieve the private pilot standard on the majority of occasions and safe to operate under direct supervision.

 

Code 4 has received training in the element but not able to consistently achieve the PPL standard.

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/fcl/download/vfras02.pdf

 

The standard required prior to the first solo flight is clearly outlined in CASA's First Solo Achievement Record at http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/manuals/regulate/fcl/form1021.pdf

 

Enter and recover from stall is a code 3 while recovery from an incipient spin is only a code 4. See above - the student gets to do some limited solo circuits under supervision prior to some further stall training to bolster the standard of recovery from an incipient spin.

 

The required standard for GFPT is code 2 i.e. private pilot licence standard. http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/manuals/regulate/fcl/form1023.pdf

 

The interesting thing about these achievement records is that the student gets to sign them to certify that he or she has completed the training. The instructor(s) also gets to sign to certify the achievement of every element of competency listed. So, like most things where you sign your name, it is good to read and understand what you are signing, and why.

 

Of course, nothing in the above text really explains what is actually required so you need to dive deeper into the Syllabus and read the performance criteria for a private pilot licence.

 

ENTER AND RECOVER FROM A STALL INCLUDES:

 

• recognises airframe buffet and control effectiveness symptoms and visual and aural stall warning device while approaching the stall
   
   
  
• stall aircraft while maintaining balanced flight
   
   
  
• observes IAS and control wheel/stick position at point of departure from intended flight path (stall)
   
   
  
• recovers from stall with minimum height loss
   
   
  
• recovers from stall during straight and level, climbing, descending and approach configuration flight
   
   
  
• recovers from stall during a turn
   
   
  

 

 

RECOVER FROM INCIPIENT SPIN INCLUDES:

 

• terminates yaw
   
   
  
• adjusts aeroplane attitude and power setting following incipient spin (stall with wing drop) and resumes normal balanced flight
   
   
  
• recovers at incipient spin stage during a turn and resumes controlled flight
   
   
  

 

 

Those performance criteria seem fairly straightforward to me. I don't see why anyone should accept anything less from the instructor during their flying training.

 

Instructors are given very clear guidance from CASA in the Flight Instructors Manual.

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/aoc/training/guides/fim.pdf

 

It is all there:

 

Although the student must be taught some method of entering the stall, it is emphasized that the method of entry is only incidental to the important task of recognizing the warnings of the impeding stall and the recovery from the developed stall.

Even if the particular aeroplane normally does not ‘drop a wing’ during the stall the correct stall recovery technique should be taught from the start.

The first demonstration of a stall should show the student that it is not in any way a frightening experience and should rid the pupil of any false ideas of danger and violent sensations.

 

The first stall is best done at the end of the lesson preceding that on which stalling is to be dealt

 

with in detail. Whilst no real instruction should be given during this demonstration, it is advisable to indicate the point of stall and the commencement of recovery.

 

Obviously all the points raised cannot be taught during one flight but must be spread over several. Especially in the early stages watch for symptoms of air sickness and discontinue the exercise if necessary.

 

Before carrying out any advanced stalling exercise it is important that sufficient height is gained to ensure recovery by 3,000 feet above ground level and that the aeroplane is in the appropriate training area. The pre-stalling check will of course vary from aeroplane to aeroplane, but will normally cover such items as harness, hatches, loose articles, trims, brakes, mixture, carburettor heat, fuel, etc. The student should be provided with and expected to learn such a check list.

 

.......

 

AIR EXERCISE

 

(a) Symptoms of the stall

 

(b) Effect of power on recovery

 

© Recovery when the wing drops

 

(d) Effect of power

 

(e) Effect of flap

 

(f) Recovery from the incipient stall

 

(g) Effect of dynamic loading

 

.......

That is all before first solo.Before the first training area solo there is additional training to recognise the onset of a spin or spiral dive and learn how to recover.

 

Instruction and practice in the fully developed spin is not a mandatory exercise when the student is being taught to fly on most types of aeroplanes. However, whether the full spin is demonstrated or not, and even though a student may have experienced the incipient spin while practicing stalling, they must be given sufficient further instruction in the incipient spin stage in order to be fully familiar with the recognition and prevention of the spin before it develops fully.

......

When the type of aeroplane in use permits spinning, the emphasis should first be placed on the fully developed spin. When the student has mastered the recovery from this condition, the emphasis should be placed on early recognition of the various conditions that can lead to a spin,and the clean recovery at the incipient stage.

 

Deliberate spirals should be done only as a dual exercise.

 

Instructors must ensure that the aeroplane being used for training is suitable for the demonstration of the spiral dive. The main consideration is the structural limitations imposed on the particular type of aeroplane. In this manoeuvre the airspeed builds up so rapidly that it is possible to overstress the aeroplane with poor recovery technique. For these reasons it is imperative that the instructor be completely familiar with the aeroplane’s performance in this manoeuvre before attempting to demonstrate it."

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

You raise some very interesting points. As someone who has NOT done any indepth practice on stalls / spins / spiral dives - only to the "incipient" stage, I have been seriously considering finding an instructor with the right rating and A/C in order to expand my skill set. I wonder if that fact that RA-Aus registered A/C are not allowed to perform intentional "aerobatic" maneuvers is a factor here? Thanks for your post :)

 

 

[facthunter]

Most GA aeroplanes are not particularly suitable either. Most instructors would have to be taught before they can teach you because, since 1963, you didn't have to do these things. The popular US designed aircraft were not stressed or certified for spinning..( there are a few like the C152 aerobat that are certified for some fairly gentle manoeuvers) .There are plenty of high ranking Airline pilots who have never done an actual stall in a real aeroplane. Though they would have done a lot of sim training and covered the latest info and techniques from the major builders. Simulators are so good that you can get into the real thing having never seen one and fly it well.

 

This sounds pretty bad, that the guy up the front may not be able to do. ( or hasn't demonstrated) some of the things that any of us might think are somewhat essential, even for U/L's. Nev

 

 

[Thirsty]

I learnt to stall and spin in 1987 when I got my PPL. I don't think they teach spinning any more though. I was taught in a c152.

 

 

[facthunter]

The trouble with things like a c152 is that you can hardly make it spin and it will fall out of it by itself, if you let the controls go. Good for safety but not good for training.

 

Many pilots are scared of flying near the stall. This sounds like a good idea and prudent, but the trouble is that, not knowing much about it, in some situations, under pressure, they will pull the stick back far enough to stall the plane fully , even to enter a spin or flick roll , if the rudder is not centred, and at low height , It's all over, Rover.. Nev

 

 

[ben87r]

I learnt stall, spins, spirals and a few other things not to be mentioned, my instructor said to me that you need to know how to get yourself out of situations that you shouldn't have gotten yourself into and i agree, If you get into a spin you need to know how to get out of it not say it shouldn't have happened

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

There's a Decathlon available close to home :)

 

 

[facthunter]

All is not lost then. Nev

 

 

[robinsm]

I was taught, and regularly practice, stalls to keep my hand in. Both power on and power off stalls. Just like practicing engine failures etc. Keeps your hand in and enhances your faith in the aircraft, and your abilityies if things go pear shaped. Would have liked to try a few spins but not in an raa aircraft.

 

 

[sfGnome]

I would think the word has to be "must" but CASA uses "should"

As an aside, in technical specifications in my line of work, 'should' is defined as the imperative - ie it means the same as must. 'May', on the other hand, means 'optional'. Hence, "may not" actually means that you don't have to not do something... English is a strange language.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

... in other technical areas, "should" means just that. ie. not mandatory, but desirable. Where mandatory is meant, the word "shall" is used.

 

Essentially, it is important in specification documents to define the terms used to avoid misinterpretation.

 

 

[damkia]

... in other technical areas, "should" means just that. ie. not mandatory, but desirable. Where mandatory is meant, the word "shall" is used.Essentially, it is important in specification documents to define the terms used to avoid misinterpretation.

This is the "Legalese" that is used in legislation.

 

 

[facthunter]

Why worry about the words?.... The system changed when the aircraft changed. That was GA. in 1963.. The DH 82 was removed from the list of approved training aircraft. (You could not use it as an initial trainer) I was one of the few who kept flying it when I could and did as much instructing in it as I could get.

 

Believe it or not, most people did not want to fly them

 

In Raaus we have no suitable aircraft either. and just forget spinning in RAAus aircraft period!. There is enough danger in deliberately spinning ANY spin certified aircraft that it should be approached with good knowledge and caution every time.

 

Aerobatic planes ( the high "G" ones) excluded to some extent, because they are stalled/unstalled at the flick of the joystick and it is "normal ops" for them..

 

I believe we NEED emergency manoeuver. ( Recovering from unusual attitudes) training, if not for all, ar least for the instructors. Smaller lighter aircraft are more likely to get into unusual attitudes than larger faster ones. Nev

 

 

[Guest pookemon]

Based on the above we should all have submerged emergency exit training, in case we ditch; fire fighting training in case theres a fire; first aid etc. etc.

 

If you've gotten an RAA aircraft into a spin then you've cocked up training that you've already had (incipient spin recovery) - so your spin training is probably not going to help too much (it is, afterall, basically the same thing - power off, opposite rudder, stick forward). If you want to do spin training, go GA - if you want to fly RAA then follow your training, recognise the symptoms of a stall and act accordingly. If the wing drops, act accordingly. If you get into a spin, that's your 3 strikes right there. We are not taught how to recover from stalls so that we can recover from them - we are taught how to recognise and PREVENT them, and the same goes for spins.

 

The syllabus is pretty clear on what we must learn - and there shouldn't be any need to learn anything further - that is why we have RAA rather than just GA.

 

 

[facthunter]

Unfortunately that makes a virtue of limiting knowledge. I've known of too many pilots pranging because they were not taught enough to enable them to do a better job. Gusty conditions with wind change, mechanical turbulence. I'm not going to list some others because it will identify them. The syllabus will respond to need "eventually".

 

Nothing you say along the lines of what you have posted above will stop me advocating EMT to anyone who is interested.

 

There is no spin training in GA, and I'm not advodcating it for RAAus either.

 

I am advocating being able to recover from unusual attitudes which if most pilots found themselves in, would do a poor job unless they had the training . Reading my previous post again, I can't see why you have said what you have. It doesn't reflect what I actually said, does it.?

 

 

[nathan_c]

If all else fails go to a gliding club and see if you can do some spin training in a glider. Most clubs have a glider that is capable of spinning and then you will know what a spin feels like. Having done spin training in a glider I feel that if I ever found myself in that situation in an ultralight (not that you should get that far anyway) I could confidently recover and have no further issue.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...

The syllabus is pretty clear on what we must learn - and there shouldn't be any need to learn anything further - that is why we have RAA rather than just GA.

Don't you think that such a statement is glorifying ignorance and complacency.

I'm pleased to say that my training exceeded the syllabus requirements in some areas.

 

Before anyone yells profiteering, I should say that it wasn't forced on me, but just offered.

 

 

[Guest pookemon]

So what's next after we push RAA into the realm of Aerobatics? ILS?

 

It's just silly. RAA is RAA, GA is GA (Spin training is in CAO 40.0). Push the syllabus further and further until RAA ends up being PPL - all because people will ignore their training and get in situations they shouldn't be in. If you want the training, you can get it through other avenues.

 

And I'm not advocating ignorance or complacency - I'm advocating that you follow the training you already have - which is designed to keep you out of trouble. And if you feel you need more information - by all means, go and get it.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I dont know where Bill gets his Data from, he did say some RAA peeps.The first time I was out upside down.Was in a Drifter back in 1988 by a instructor showing me incipent spins etc. I guess that these days with duty of care, he may be right and RAA peeps dont know much about stalling.I find that hard to beleive but.I learned more stick and rudder skills in the AUF than GA.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I still cant get over the youtube videos of silly billy, pilots trying to land nose wheel first in a 172 or Warrior/Archer.Somebody has not taught them how to fly a aeroplane.I dont get that stuff.Maybe Im lucky, I learnt to fly a TW aircraft first.

 

 

[Exadios]

If all else fails go to a gliding club and see if you can do some spin training in a glider. Most clubs have a glider that is capable of spinning and then you will know what a spin feels like. Having done spin training in a glider I feel that if I ever found myself in that situation in an ultralight (not that you should get that far anyway) I could confidently recover and have no further issue.

Good idea. Glider pilots have to demonstrate 2 or 3 spin recoveries per year in order to stay current. I recommend that all pilots practice their spins every year.

 

One of the problems with the incipient spin training approach is that I can remember how disorientated I felt the first few times I spun an aircraft. Like anything else it takes practice to recover from a spin. The other problem is that it is possible to go from flying to spinning without going through any effective incipient spin. this is why gliders sometimes spin in a thermal.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I still cant get over the youtube videos of wankers, sorry GA pilots trying to land nose wheel first in a 172 or Warrior/Archer.Somebody has not taught them how to fly a aeroplane.I dont get that stuff.Maybe Im lucky, I learnt to fly a TW aircraft first.

Nothing to do with TW Dazza everything to do with Instructors. We had a long thread on here a year or so ago where a landing method which some instructors promoted very forcefully could result in landing on the nose wheel.

 

 

[kaz3g]

... in other technical areas, "should" means just that. ie. not mandatory, but desirable. Where mandatory is meant, the word "shall" is used.Essentially, it is important in specification documents to define the terms used to avoid misinterpretation.

"Should" is a poor choice of terminology in a legal document...either "may" or " must" are appropriate as the case may be.

 

Kaz

 

 

[djpacro]

I dont know where Bill gets his Data from, he did say some RAA peeps .... he may be right and RAA peeps dont know much about stalling.I find that hard to beleive but.....

Bill went on to comment about professional pilots - I included the initial sentence on RAA to put his other comments into context - the bold font on the first sentence was Bill's not mine so unintentional here. Anyway, I put this in the GA discussion forum and selected "Stall" as the topic, notwithstanding that spins are optional in GA, I have encountered deficiencies wrt instructors as Bill stated.

 

You raise some very interesting points. As someone who has NOT done any indepth practice on stalls / spins / spiral dives - only to the "incipient" stage .... I wonder if that fact that RA-Aus registered A/C are not allowed to perform intentional "aerobatic" maneuvers is a factor here?

Fine to want to go on and do more, and you will love the Decathlon, but I assume that you would've had the required "indepth" practice on stalls etc even if only to the incipient stage. Aircraft type is not a factor - many of the same types used in RAA training are also registered with CASA and used for training per the syllabus I described (excluding the optional spinning).

 

If you've gotten an ..... aircraft into a spin then you've cocked up training that you've already had (incipient spin recovery) - so your spin training is probably not going to help too much (it is, afterall, basically the same thing - power off, opposite rudder, stick forward). If you want to do spin training, go GA ...We are not taught how to recover from stalls so that we can recover from them - we are taught how to recognise and PREVENT them ..

Agreed. Some (including the large) flying schools include the optional spinning pre-GFPT and further spinning and unusual attitude / upset recovery training post-PPL on the way to a CPL - my guess is that the majority of CPLs undergo such training. Some schools do not and may partly explain Bill's comments wrt some GA instructors.

 

The syllabus is pretty clear on what we must learn - and there shouldn't be any need to learn anything further ...

Agreed, my understanding is that the knowledge and competency requirements wrt stall training are the same for both RAA and GAA yet I have seen recent examples of serious deficiencies in both RAA and GAA - as Bill stated ... "SOME" only but I believe that this topic is too important to accept any shortcuts in the syllabus of stall training - too many people still die.

[djpacro]

GA instructors, per the CAO for instructor rating course, need to be trained in recovery from a fully developed spin - 1.2 hrs dual per the CAO. CASA's new CAAP on instructor training (one outcome of their program to improve standards) rejigs that and beefs the spin training up to - total for two trainee instructors - 6 classroom hours, 2 hours dual (i.e. 1 hour for each trainee with a Grade 1 instructor) and 1.5 hours mutual (the two trainees together to consolidate their dual training).

 

It makes a lot of sense to me that instructors be comfortable with fully developed spins - my observation is that instructors I have encountered who tend to shortcut stall training with their students are the products of shortcuts in their own instructor training wrt stalls and spins.