Stall Training

[djpacro]

I disagree Kaz. "May" simply gives permission - i.e. not prohibited. david10 and damkia had it correct per their earlier posts.

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

Fine to want to go on and do more, and you will love the Decathlon, but I assume that you would've had the required "indepth" practice on stalls etc even if only to the incipient stage. Aircraft type is not a factor - many of the same types used in RAA training are also registered with CASA and used for training per the syllabus I described (excluding the optional spinning).

 

You assume correct, my wording was perhaps unclear. We spent a goodly amount of time - and I still do - practicing stalls, power on, power off etc, and learning how to recover from an incipient spin or spiral dive, without letting it develop further into an actual spin or spiral dive. This thread is certainly very interesting to me as a low-hours pilot, it's great that I can learn from more experienced people such as yourself - so thankyou very much for your input

 

 

[mnewbery]

http://www.australianflying.com.au/latest/casa-seeks-feedback-on-stall/spin-training

 

 

 

[Ryanm]

http://www.australianflying.com.au/latest/casa-seeks-feedback-on-stall/spin-training

 

 

It’s about time! How long has Pt61 been in force? 

 

 

[Jase T]

I

Based on the above we should all have submerged emergency exit training, in case we ditch; fire fighting training in case theres a fire; first aid etc. etc.

 

If you've gotten an RAA aircraft into a spin then you've cocked up training that you've already had (incipient spin recovery) - so your spin training is probably not going to help too much (it is, afterall, basically the same thing - power off, opposite rudder, stick forward). If you want to do spin training, go GA - if you want to fly RAA then follow your training, recognise the symptoms of a stall and act accordingly. If the wing drops, act accordingly. If you get into a spin, that's your 3 strikes right there. We are not taught how to recover from stalls so that we can recover from them - we are taught how to recognise and PREVENT them, and the same goes for spins.

 

The syllabus is pretty clear on what we must learn - and there shouldn't be any need to learn anything further - that is why we have RAA rather than just GA.

I disagree. There are (and this is only IMHO) only a few things that can genuinely kill you quickly. If those there are few you can actually have a say in. Stall / spin is one of those. Many of the higher performance RAA aircraft would be fairly easy to spin I would imagine (or at least get a good wing drop). And it would be in many pilots best interest to actually experience it, and it’s recovery in a safe controlled environment. I agree if you are going to take it easy in a simple aircraft you may never need it but it is nice to have the experience the day you do need it. Also with the increasing amount of IT in cockpits many pilots are spending increasing amounts of time “eyes down” and would probably benefit a lot from unusual attitude recovery training. Should they be mandatory? I don’t know are they a good idea? Bloody oath. Being an RAA pilot doesn’t mean you can’t be the most professional and safest operator you can be!

[facthunter]

Be aware we have just had a thread dredge HERE of near 8 years.. The subject is still worthy of discussion. If anything, U/Ls are more difficult to fly than most low level GA types. Nev

[turboplanner]

Fatalities in RA are roughly 12 per year over the decades. If you look at the causes a surprising amount are just the pilot giving up when the engine stops. The rest are similar to GA - flying in IMC flying over terrain where a forced landing is not possible, trying to stretch a glide to some landable surface. RA trains on incipient spins and I pulled out of my first one at around 750 feet, so an epic fail, but got them up to 150 feet, so reasonable for an alert, current, pilot getting into one on turn to final at 500 feet. If you pull the exact figures and consider how you might improve things without adding, say, 20% cost to an RPC pushing it closer to GA costs, full spin and unusual attitude recovery training might not produce any difference in the fatality rate.

 

However, if you love flying and if you want to improve your skills, you only needs to find a GA instructor with suitable endorsements and suitable aircraft, and you can go and do both. I've seen a lot of reports from people who have done this, and all the comments have been very positive. Also, even in RA if it's been a few years since you did incipient spins, and forgotten which rudder to go for etc, or if you never did them, and hour with an instructor is a great investment.

[facthunter]

I've never advocated "everyone" do it but instructors can't really do a good job if they aren't fully trained. I was, and I believe It's saved my life on many occasions and have never had an inadvertent stall.. I'm not scared of flying slow but give it the attention it requires.

Use of power in stall recovery isn't discussed. Why? IF you want to REALLY stall just pull the stick back when the nose drops. It's instinctive for most pilots and in a turn will ruin your day. Spiral dives in poor vis or if disorientated are as dangerous as a spin potentially and also stress the airframe which a spin doesn't. Nev

[Yenn]

My Corby is RAAus registered and perfectly capable of doing most types of aerobatics, including spins. I fly it with a RAAus certificate so cannot aerobat it.

I have done aerobatics in GA and have a GA licence I could do aerobatics in my RV but prefer not to.

With both of my planes I get very close to the stall every time I land, if not actually there. I find I have to be able to recognise the oncoming stall in order to land, otherwise I would be like a nosewheel pilot and fly it on 10 kts above stall speed.

I actually enjoy slow flying, just seeing how far I can go using the rudder to keep straight while stalled.

[Bruce Tuncks]

It's the turn onto finals that can make me nervous. You have slowed down to circuit speed and then then a small overshoot can make that turn steeper than you meant it to be. Add in some ground-effect turbulence and you can have a stall/spin too close to the ground to recover.

I reckon the worst accident in my 45 years at Gawler was an ex-747 captain doing one of these in a Sonerai type plane with a Volkswagen engine on its first flight. Power failure was a big factor too, but the stall-spin caused the impact I think.

Have the results of any investigation ever been published?

[turboplanner]

It's the turn onto finals that can make me nervous. You have slowed down to circuit speed and then then a small overshoot can make that turn steeper than you meant it to be. Add in some ground-effect turbulence and you can have a stall/spin too close to the ground to recover.

I reckon the worst accident in my 45 years at Gawler was an ex-747 captain doing one of these in a Sonerai type plane with a Volkswagen engine on its first flight. Power failure was a big factor too, but the stall-spin caused the impact I think.

Have the results of any investigation ever been published?

Well you’re only doing one final for a start, and we all under and overshoot for that 500’ turn. If you stick to Rate 1 turns in the circuit you are not likely to spin. If that leaves you too far past the runway line, you do a go round, still no issue. If you make 60 degree turns as some do, you’re at 2 g, stall is at a much higher speed and you’re one unexpected buffet away from a spin. Why would you do it? But some always do. Even here, in my training I was able to achieve a best recovery from an incipient spin of 150’. Could I do that this morning? No, I could probably come out before I hit the ground if I remembered the correct throttle and rudder inputs, so really would have no hope of a 100% surety which is why I do 30% turns. I have never overrun the runway so much as to yank back on the strip, so that would be the first sign that I had to spend a few hours with an instructor, but why even then would I not just make a go round. The solution is pilot behaviour.

[facthunter]

Keeping the bank angle lower is a double edged sword. It encourages people to do a flat (unbalanced) turn if they want to tighten the turn. (Very bad habit).

The turn to final is particularly attention concentrating. You usually muck it up when you have a downwind on base. That means you would have a fair amount of crab on final in any case and the downwind on base gives an illusion of going a bit fast, so you have a couple of potential problems already. ANY time you bank to cause a turn, you will need more lift and more lift means more drag, so add power or lower the nose or do a bit of both depending on where you are. Low speed with the ball off centre is a bad combination.. A tiny bit of extra back stick and it's over . Steep turns are not dangerous if done the right way. Balanced and with a margin above the NEW stall speed and at low levels you are not concentrating on watching your airspeed all the time so must be aware of any pitch control movements and your planes attitude changes which will affect your airspeed. Nev

[turboplanner]

Keeping the bank angle lower is a double edged sword. It encourages people to do a flat (unbalanced) turn if they want to tighten the turn. (Very bad habit).

The turn to final is particularly attention concentrating. You usually muck it up when you have a downwind on base. That means you would have a fair amount of crab on final in any case and the downwind on base gives an illusion of going a bit fast, so you have a couple of potential problems already. ANY time you bank to cause a turn, you will need more lift and more lift means more drag, so add power or lower the nose or do a bit of both depending on where you are. Low speed with the ball off centre is a bad combination.. A tiny bit of extra back stick and it's over . Steep turns are not dangerous if done the right way. Balanced and with a margin above the NEW stall speed and at low levels you are not concentrating on watching your airspeed all the time so must be aware of any pitch control movements and your planes attitude changes which will affect your airspeed. Nev

Well you've demolished everything I've said, so maybe you could expand on the following:

If you are doing a balanced 30 degree turn, and if you don't line up with the runway you're going to do a go round; how would it encourage you to do a flat unbalanced turn?

The same principles apply, even though you're crabbing; if you can't line up you go round, what's wrong with that.

If you use Rate 1 turns (30 deg.) in the circuit consistently you become aware during your training of the dynamics, so why would you randomly start playing with lowering the nose or adding more power in a turn which is already managed?

You should already have been trained for circuit speeds, the circuit doesn't change, you're still flying in a slug of air so why would you suddenly start flying at low speed with the ball off-centre?

If you are in a balanced 30 degree turn, why would you be applying "a tiny bit of back stick" when you already have back stick applied for the bank?

No, steep turns are not dangerous if done the right way, but in my training steep turns were taught at altitude, and with a particular throttle setting. Are you suggesting people should be routinely doing them in the circuit?

[Yenn]

Rather than worrying about the turns, we should be making assessments of winds while we are on downwind and even before. It is not hard when on downwind to see if you are drifting towards or away from the runway. Use that information to decide how you conduct the turn on to base and also onto final. As you finish the turn onto final, you are usually aiming for 500', so there is plenty of room to adjust the final approach.

My preference is to always be high on the approach, it is easy to lose height, but difficult to stretch the glide. Above all keep an eye on the ball.

[kgwilson]

I tend to fly pretty tight circuits in my Sierra when there is no other traffic to force a big circuit which is most of the time so my turn on to final is sometimes a widish 180 from down wind which is quite steep and will be descending at 1000 fpm at 70 knots, then straighten up & slow to 55 by the time I cross the fence. I've been told that I was sideslipping but I'm not. I keep the ball centred. It is just a steep descending turn.

[M61A1]

Keeping the bank angle lower is a double edged sword. It encourages people to do a flat (unbalanced) turn if they want to tighten the turn. (Very bad habit).

From what I've read in incident reports this is far more of a killer than steep turns.

The pilot has been taught that you mustn't exceed 30° of bank in the circuit and so boots in some rudder (so as not to be seen banking excessively) to skid it around without adding bank or power. This makes the nose drop and roll a little, so they pull back and add opposite aileron and keep adding the same inputs until it's all over.

I've been told that I was sideslipping but I'm not.

So what if you were....sideslipping is quite a reasonable practice for many.

[Guest Machtuk]

Stall is about AoA & load factor, few understand this. Speed is not the governing indicator, it's all most GA planes have as a guide to stalling.

Personally I don't believe the quality of training is adequate in this country at the entry level, that's the biggest factor right from the get go!

Then add in the ongoing weak checks and you often have a potential accident sitting quietly till the Swiss cheese holes all line up!

[kgwilson]

When I started conversion from GA it was in a Skyfox Gazelle & I sideslipped most of the time on final as I like a high glide approach. With no flaps it was a good way to get the aircraft right on to the aiming point almost every time.

[turboplanner]

The pilot has been taught that you mustn't exceed 30° of bank in the circuit and so boots in some rudder (so as not to be seen banking excessively) to skid it around without adding bank or power. This makes the nose drop and roll a little, so they pull back and add opposite aileron and keep adding the same inputs until it's all over.

I don't believe any pilot has been taught "you mustn't exceed 30 deg", but isusually rold to do rate 1 turns in the circuit because that gives a bigger margin of error, and has everyone doing the same thing in the same place.. GA pilots rarely spend much time on rudder, so are unlikely to use such an unnatural action as you describe, although I suppose some RA pilots might decide the rudder is to turn, thereby discarding all their BAK training, which I felt would have killed any thought of doing this, and I couldn't see any instructors saying "Don't worry about it mate, just give it heaps of rudder!"

[Old Koreelah]

I don't believe any pilot has been taught "you mustn't exceed 30 deg"...

Turbs you are probably right, but what matters is which aspects of the training "stick".

Not every instructor has the gift of prefect communication.

 

I know one new pilot who concentrated on doing nice square turns in the circuit, because that's what he thought was most important. Other aspects seemed to be secondary, such as airspeed, attitude, bank angle, altitude, angle to aiming point...

[facthunter]

I don't suggest steep turns in a circuit, but if you HAVE to do one anywhere you MUST add power or steepen the glide to preserve your stall margin and they must be balanced unless you are doing a sideslipping turn on purpose. to increase your RoD. . In a small wingspan U/L a bit of turbulence will easily put you into a bank over 30 degrees if you already have bank on and we do fly on "those "days where it's not calm. 30 degrees is not a lot of bank and is easy to cope with. If you can't cope with a lot more you shouldn't be there because it "will happen" unless you only fly in absolute calm conditions. Nev

[turboplanner]

Turbs you are probably right, but what matters is which aspects of the training "stick".

Not every instructor has the gift of prefect communication.

I know one new pilot who concentrated on doing nice square turns in the circuit, because that's what he thought was most important. Other aspects seemed to be secondary, such as airspeed, attitude, bank angle, altitude, angle to aiming point...

These are the patterns required to be flown (see various CARS and CAAPs), so nice square turns are mandatory, so that other pilots can predict what you are likely to do, so you can't just make up your own circuits.

Every one of the Instructors I've even had, gently guided me around that rectangle and at the correct height; you do a LOT of circuits with instructors so if one spend the circuit asleep (as one of mine did) you quietly drop him and choose someone else.

 

All of the aspects you mentioned are important in their own way, and I've found Instructors are quick to break up any obsession with just one aspect of flying. You really do have to learn it all and get it all going at once.

 

We've had the discussion many times where someone from a country airfield that may never fly with another aircraft in the circuit scratches his head at all these formal practices, and I accept that it's hard to visualise what we do in the cities with10+ aircraft in the circuit and 2 or three on final alone. You would appreciate that for three to get down you have to be proceeding in a reasonable order so one doesn't get too close and have to go around. A pilot practising correct formal principles will have a much safer time in the City or at a fly in.

[M61A1]

I don't believe any pilot has been taught "you mustn't exceed 30 deg", but isusually rold to do rate 1 turns in the circuit because that gives a bigger margin of error, and has everyone doing the same thing in the same place.. GA pilots rarely spend much time on rudder, so are unlikely to use such an unnatural action as you describe, although I suppose some RA pilots might decide the rudder is to turn, thereby discarding all their BAK training, which I felt would have killed any thought of doing this, and I couldn't see any instructors saying "Don't worry about it mate, just give it heaps of rudder!"

Believe what you like. You are wrong.

[turboplanner]

Believe what you like. You are wrong.

In some cases yes, but I didn't want to confuse new students by quoting the people who will never get it.

[M61A1]

On

In some cases yes, but I didn't want to confuse new students by quoting the people who will never get it.

one might ask why there are so many YouTube instructor clips and written articles about the base to final stall, with many of them described as I did above, if it’s not really a thing.