Built-up areas - yes or no?

[Matt Tomlinson]

I obtained my trike certificate about two years ago with an HGFA instructor. One of the things that was drilled into me was "avoid built-up areas". I was even taught a definition; if there are street lights, then it should be considered as such. I have dutifully followed this advice ever since.

 

Then, reading this month's CASA Flight Safety magazine, an article on "sharing the skies with trikes" quotes Lee Ungermann (CASA sports aviation specialist & former trike instructor) saying that "[trikes] are allowed to fly over built up areas".

 

Which is the correct approach?

 

Matt Tomlinson.

 

 

[Louis Moore]

Why avoid built up areas in a trike? I am sure people would rather a trike coming into their lounge room as opposed to a chieftain!

 

 

[facthunter]

Keep on avoiding built-up areas unless you can glide clear if the donk fails. It's sensible, safer and people don't want little planes ftying over their houses, ( or big ones either). Nev

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

If in doubt refer to CAO 95.32 - a factory built trike

 

"must not be flown over a closely-settled area at a height:

 

(i) that is lower than 1 000 feet above ground level; and

 

(ii) from which it cannot glide clear of the closely-settled area to a suitable landing area;"

 

If it is HGFA registered there might be additional restrictions in their Operations Manual

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[ben87r]

must not be flown over a closely-settled area at a height: (i) that is lower than 1 000 feet above ground level; and

(ii) from which it cannot glide clear of the closely-settled area to a suitable landing area;"

This is what i was told but, most people have said to me that unless there is a need for it try to avoid it because we want to annoy as small a number as possible

 

 

[facthunter]

Most ground observers don't have much of a clue as to the real hieght that a plane is flying. This is how a lot of low flying pilots get off the hook. If a flying instructor, Glider person or someone with an aviation background reports it, it sticks better. We are not trying to be clever here though. People might think you are low when you are at 1500 feet, depends what side of the bed they got out of that morning.

 

CASA have been looking at applying restrictions to all single engined aeroplanes, such that some are wondering how they might operate out of secondary airports, if this goes any further down the track I haven't flown over a populous area except to get to an aerodrome for YONKS. How far would you glide from 1,000' in a trike or a thruster? Not far. Nev

 

 

[eastmeg2]

To extend upons John's post #4, memory tells me there is also something like "unless in the act of taking off or landing", but then that could be to do with the 500ft AGL minimum height rule that applies outside built up areas . . .

 

If landing at an airstrip with closely settled areas in the circuit area I tend to do circuits 1,000ft above aerodrome level, rather than the 500ft circuit trikes can qualify for at < 55kts.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Most ground observers don't have much of a clue as to the real hieght that a plane is flying. This is how a lot of low flying pilots get off the hook.

Somewhat less effective now pretty much everyone has a phone with camera. Not much use trying to claim you were above 500' if the complaint included a photo of a plane with landscape in the background !

 

 

[facthunter]

It goes something like "except in the course of taking of or landing at an aerodrome" . Don't quote me but that's the gist of it. Nev

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

To extend upons John's post #4, memory tells me there is also something like "unless in the act of taking off or landing", but then that could be to do with the 500ft AGL minimum height rule that applies outside built up areas . . .If landing at an airstrip with closely settled areas in the circuit area I tend to do circuits 1,000ft above aerodrome level, rather than the 500ft circuit trikes can qualify for at < 55kts.

AFAIK there is no exemption from the built-up area rules for taking off or landing- you need to be able to glide to a suitable landing area

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[facthunter]

Crezzi. . The point you make, is valid , camera's are everywhere. Remember the plane at Hume Weir. A movie conveys the message

 

If that is the case it makes operating out of Bendigo a bit of a challenge.. nev

 

 

[Bluey]

It's ok as long as you can glide clear of the population to a safe landing area and you are above 1000feet AGL. The most populated areas are in controlled airspace most of the time. This is especially true around Sydney Matt.

 

Bluey.

 

 

[skeptic36]

It's ok as long as you can glide clear of the population to a safe landing area and you are above 1000feet AGL. The most populated areas are in controlled airspace most of the time. This is especially true around Sydney Matt.Bluey.

 

HGFA Operations manual 6.5.9 "A weightshift microlight must not be flown over a city or town. CAR157.(1)

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Bluey]

I'm with RAAUS and while I don't have the reference to their operations manual, instructors have told me its ok under the above stated conditions. I'm not sure if the HGFA regulations have changed to be in line with the RAAUS?

 

Bluey.

 

 

[skeptic36]

I'm with RAAUS and while I don't have the reference to their operations manual, instructors have told me its ok under the above stated conditions. I'm not sure if the HGFA regulations have changed to be in line with the RAAUS?Bluey.

Hmph the HGFA would have to do something before anything could change!

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

RAA Ops manual has no similar rule to the HGFA one quoted. So for RAA microlights, it is just the CAR 95-32 and rules.referenced in the VFRG.

 

BTW, it is 1,000' above the highest structure within 600m horizontal.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Bill, refering to Crezzis post below.

 

If in doubt refer to CAO 95.32 - a factory built trike

 

"must not be flown over a closely-settled area at a height:

 

(i) that is lower than 1 000 feet above ground level; and

 

(ii) from which it cannot glide clear of the closely-settled area to a suitable landing area;"

 

If it is HGFA registered there might be additional restrictions in their Operations Manual

 

If in doubt refer to CAO 95.32 - a factory built trike

 

Casa makes the rules and both HGFA and RAA come under the umbrella of CASA.

 

I had this discussion with a good and very well experienced commercial, ATPL pilot and RAA instructor a few years back, he got the CAO regs out and showed me and assured me that a 95:32 factory built trike like airborne are in fact allowed over towns not below 1000 agl and/or within gliding distance of a suitable landing area.

 

He basically said CASA has the final say as they make the rules contrary to what the HGFA may have written.

 

Who is right ??who knows but CASA is god and the rest are deciples im my book.

 

BTW does the HGFA know trikes exist in their organization, oh yeah thats right we pay the highest fees and get the least return (nothing), the hangies sure have some good outings on our dough.

 

Alf

 

 

[alf jessup]

Why avoid built up areas in a trike? I am sure people would rather a trike coming into their lounge room as opposed to a chieftain!

Louis,

 

Don't you mean they would preffer the trike breaking the roof tiles compared to the cheiftan taking theirs and next doors house away??? lol

 

Alf

 

 

[skeptic36]

Bill, refering to Crezzis post below.If in doubt refer to CAO 95.32 - a factory built trike

 

"must not be flown over a closely-settled area at a height:

 

(i) that is lower than 1 000 feet above ground level; and

 

(ii) from which it cannot glide clear of the closely-settled area to a suitable landing area;"

 

If it is HGFA registered there might be additional restrictions in their Operations Manual

 

If in doubt refer to CAO 95.32 - a factory built trike

 

Casa makes the rules and both HGFA and RAA come under the umbrella of CASA.

 

I had this discussion with a good and very well experienced commercial, ATPL pilot and RAA instructor a few years back, he got the CAO regs out and showed me and assured me that a 95:32 factory built trike like airborne are in fact allowed over towns not below 1000 agl and/or within gliding distance of a suitable landing area.

 

He basically said CASA has the final say as they make the rules contrary to what the HGFA may have written.

 

Who is right ??who knows but CASA is god and the rest are deciples im my book.

 

BTW does the HGFA know trikes exist in their organization, oh yeah thats right we pay the highest fees and get the least return (nothing), the hangies sure have some good outings on our dough.

 

Alf

Hi Alf

 

Just copied it straight out of my HGFA Pilots Handbook (opps manual) and I reckon if you are HGFA and you want to be covered by their insurance then you better be flying by the book IMHO.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

CAO 95.32 also mandates that "the aeroplane must be operated in accordance with the requirements of the appropriate Operations Manual".

 

Hence an HGFA trike is not allowed to fly over built-up areas as their Ops manual specifically prohibits this (despite it being permitted in 95.32).

 

IIRC their ops manual also contains a total prohibition on flight in controlled airspace despite it being allowed in 95.32 (for PPL holders etc etc)

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

at thr risk of going off on a tangent, I struggle to understand why anyone who doent also fly hang gliders, would bother registering atrike with HGFA. In the years I was with them, other than take my money they never did a single thing and I never recieved a single non renewal related letter or post..... I moved over to RAA and then had the option of expanding into other aircraft types more suited to southern climate winter flying.....

 

It was also cheaper per year (not sure if thats still the case) and I got a magazine each month that I was previously paying for at the newsagent. With HGFA there was a magazine available online, but if not into hang gliders then it was a very quick and forgettable read!

 

Andy

 

 

[skeptic36]

at thr risk of going off on a tangent, I struggle to understand why anyone who doent also fly hang gliders, would bother registering atrike with HGFA. In the years I was with them, other than take my money they never did a single thing and I never recieved a single non renewal related letter or post..... I moved over to RAA and then had the option of expanding into other aircraft types more suited to southern climate winter flying.....It was also cheaper per year (not sure if thats still the case) and I got a magazine each month that I was previously paying for at the newsagent. With HGFA there was a magazine available online, but if not into hang gliders then it was a very quick and forgettable read!

 

Andy

The only reason HGFA attracts members is people without aviation experience of any kind do a tif with a HGFA instructor and it is not until a couple of years later that the student realises what a useless organization it is. Then it is a hassle to re-register your trike and get your license changed over to RAAus. (something I intend to do in the future when I update my trike (if RAAus hasn't imploded:bomb: by then))

Regards Bill

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I've seen a few changing over to RAA. Sometimes after the purchase of an HGFA registered trike by a new RAA pilot, but not always.

 

As an outsider, not involved in the process, it seemed that the most difficult part was getting the old rego off the wing, provided of course the pilot was competent and the aircraft in an airworthy state and with logbooks.

 

One had apparently put the rego on the material before the wing was stitched! It took him over a day to get it off and he cut a couple of stitches in the process, so then had to look at how to get it repaired.

 

The difference between the HGFA and RAA Ops manuals w/r flight over populous areas has been interesting, as of course I've had no reason to delve into the HGFA manual. Now, understanding the HGFA position on this, it would seem, to me, it is honoured more in the breach than the observance!

 

 

[skeptic36]

. Now, understanding the HGFA position on this, it would seem, to me, it is honoured more in the breach than the observance!

:blink:Umm could you dumb that down a bit for me

 

 

[facthunter]

Whatever any organisations manuals read, if there is a conflict, the CASA rule applies. Nev