Tail Draggers and landing

[flindersflyer]

I've got tricycle undercarriage down pretty well slick now and have decided to go for endorsement on tail draggers. I'd like to hear from all those here, with lots of experience on tail draggers as to the better method of landing the same. I know right way up is good, but, 3 point or wheelers. I've had a bash at both methods and have spoken to others in our club but haven't got enough opinions to weigh up the pros and cons of either way. I'd especially like to hear from any CFI's out there. Thanks people.

 

 

[Tomo]

What aircraft would you be flying initially for your endorsement?

 

I'm no CFI, but from my experience there is really no set way to do it, it's really up to how the aircraft likes to land, which basically means, it depends what aircraft it is. Generally speaking a three pointer is (in my opinion) the most bounce proof if done properly. Larger aircraft wheel on easier, from my little experience.

 

A good wheeler takes a bit of mastering, I can only wheel certain aircraft without causing an unplanned show. But then again, that could be just me!

 

 

[ave8rr]

Larger aircraft wheel on easier, from my little experience.

The DC3 is one of the larger aircraft that has to be wheeled on. I never did a 3 point landing when flying the DAK nor have I seen it done.

Cheers

 

 

[kaz3g]

The DC3 is one of the larger aircraft that has to be wheeled on. I never did a 3 point landing when flying the DAK nor have I seen it done.Cheers

I am very envious! First aeroplane I ever rode in was a DC3 and have loved them and the experience of flight ever since. The two machines I would most like to have the chance to pilot are a DC3 and a Spitfire.

 

The choice of landing style depends on two things, the type of aircraft (design factors) and the skill of the pilot.

 

I 3 point the Auster because:

 

Most Auster drivers do this (must be a good reason);

 

It allows me to land slower and shorter;

 

It reduces the inherent tendency to bounce; and

 

It avoids me making a dill of myself on 2 wheels.

 

The other view is that a wheeler is easier to control in a x-wind and looks tidier (when done properly). Aircraft such as C170 and 180 definitely wheel better than they 3 point.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Louis Moore]

Hey Flinders,

 

Think Tomo summed it up very well, larger aircraft seem to like being wheeled on. Guess it is due to the extra wait? For most small two and four seat aircraft three pointers seem to be slightly more manageable and take less finesse in pulling off nicely. Wheelers are also beneficial so I am told if the aircraft has a smaller rudder, but if your not flying something that is to hard to manage on the ground I would start with three pointers and progress up to wheelers later on.

 

 

[pudestcon]

Tomo sums it up when he says it depends on what aircraft you will be flying.

 

I'd be willing to hazard a guess that, if you were learning in a Thruster, you would be practising wheelers due to the 'unique' geometry of the wing incidence requiring a special technique to pull off consistent 3 pointers - it's all in the timing.

 

Pud

 

 

[Tomo]

Guess it is due to the extra wait?

Or, weight even...

 

Sorry, couldn't help myself Louis, anyone think you work in a Motel...

 

 

[Louis Moore]

Typing to fast between checkouts, cleaning and breakfast. I barely have the time to do the forum in the morning Tomo!!!

 

I sent my tacho drive off, will be here next week, when you coming out to test this taildragger thread out?

 

 

[facthunter]

Regardless of what you like to do, you should be competent with both techniques. Also if you wheel an aircraft on, the tail has to be lowered at some stage, although that can be at a quite slow speed. Some aircraft eg Skyfox have limited rudder effectiveness at slow speed and are extremely difficult with a downwind.

 

In very gusty conditions you would tend to do wheelers as you have more control. Austers like 3 pointers because the dreaded bounce is less likely if the tail is firmly on the ground and if a swing develops on landing you are going slower, and its a red face rather than a scraped wingtip or worse.

 

Don't have a fixed attitude to this. There are few hard and fast rules. You have to tailor your technique to the plane's characteristics and the situation you find yourself in.

 

You will certainly find out what a rudder is for. Don't be afraid to land on one wheel, and if it's highwing you can handle a lot of crosswind. On a Tiger moth I would try to have the tailskid touch the ground just before the mains and the wingtip nearly touching the ground, in a limiting crosswind condition. That way , if you can't keep it straight you are hardly moving and don't damage anything.

 

There's a fair bit in the finer points of handling. make sure your instructor has the experience. Find someone who has flown in PNG and /or done a bit of dusting in a C-180. There will be others but choose wisely. Nev

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Enrole in tap dance lessons and start playing hacky sack to get the brain to feet motor skills up to speed.

 

Remember that the landing ain't over until the chocks are under the wheels.

 

Try and find the more mature instructor that learnt to fly before they invented the training wheel aircraft.

 

 

[facthunter]

At the other end of the thought "bubble", once there were NO tricycle U/C planes to learn on so every pilot flew TW. But the smaller a plane gets the twitchier is gets so you will find most of the U/L, TW planes require a bit of mastering.

 

Modify Ozzies second line to read "until it's in the hangar". Nev

 

 

[Louis Moore]

At the other end of the thought "bubble", once there were NO tricycle U/C planes to learn on so every pilot flew TW. But the smaller a plane gets the twitchier is gets so you will find most of the U/L, TW planes require a bit of mastering.Modify Ozzies second line to read "until it's in the hangar". Nev

Thats not always the case, I found the new skyfox far less twitchy than a luscombe, auster etc... and there a lot lighter. I used to fly a protech also which was fairly light and as solid as rock, think it has a lot to do with the width of the main wheels also.

 

As for finding older T/W pilots, there are not that many about with instructor ratings. Getting harder and harder to find T/W endorsed instructors.

 

 

[facthunter]

The new "fox" is a diferent plane. Try one of the original T/W versions. Nev

 

 

[Louis Moore]

I am too scared to Nev!

 

 

[facthunter]

I've heard a lot of experienced U/L instructors say they don't know how a superbly docile thing like a gazelle ( a tricycle gear) can become such a different kettle of fish as a TW. . The rudder doesn't do it well at times . The airflow over the fuse? I've instructed in them, but they keep me awake.. Nev

 

 

[Louis Moore]

Now you've switched to Coffee Nev!

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Thats not always the case, I found the new skyfox far less twitchy than a luscombe, auster etc... and there a lot lighter. I used to fly a protech also which was fairly light and as solid as rock, think it has a lot to do with the width of the main wheels also.As for finding older T/W pilots, there are not that many about with instructor ratings. Getting harder and harder to find T/W endorsed instructors.

I never consider that any really good pilot able to pass on quality experience to have an instructors rating. Also much can be learned if you apply amber fluid to them.

 

 

[flindersflyer]

I never consider that any really good pilot able to pass on quality experience to have an instructors rating. Also much can be learned if you apply amber fluid to them.

That's okay.................. but how much amber fluid? There's got to be a point when confusion reigns.

And by the way people, thanks for your input. I'm training in a Lightwing and I'm finding it a of a bugger. Some are good wheelers, some are not so good. So far I haven't had such a bad one as to scare the living "bee gee sus" out of me and most of my practice has been with decent X winds.

 

 

[facthunter]

Not all good pilots are instructors and not all instructors are good pilots, but generally they are more involved than your average and have to be able to answer the questions that get put to them by their students, so they should keep up with things or it shows.

 

While we are on that subject, where a school has a number of instructors, could the firm ensure they all teach the same things. in the same way? Nothing is worse than having one bloke/gal with their own way of doing it, different. to the others. Nev

 

 

[Louis Moore]

While we are on that subject, where a school has a number of instructors, could the firm ensure they all teach the same things. in the same way? Nothing is worse than having one bloke/gal with their own way of doing it, different. to the others. Nev

Then as a student you switch which instructor you're with and it is like having to learn to fly ALL over again! Could not agree more Nev, there really needs to be a KNOWN procedures manual about what is taught that all instructors are familiar with under that particular operation.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Ha now you mention that, when i was doing trips away with Pelican's Twin Otters the range of background of the Captains was anything from ex PNG, croppies, RAAF, muso, and one who dug ditches to get in the left seat. The ex PNG and croppie where good for real precise handling of the aircraft. The RAAF guy just wanted to yell and expected me to salute him. The muso was good for helping to pull chicks at the DZ bar but it was the guy that dug ditches that had a real passion for instructing.

 

 

[Louis Moore]

Ha now you mention that, when i was doing trips away with Pelican's Twin Otters the range of background of the Captains was anything from ex PNG, croppies, RAAF, muso, and one who dug ditches to get in the left seat. The ex PNG and croppie where good for real precise handling of the aircraft. The RAAF guy just wanted to yell and expected me to salute him. The muso was good for helping to pull chicks at the DZ bar but it was the guy that dug ditches that had a real passion for instructing.

That sounds about right!!!

 

 

[Yenn]

I think it is what you get used to. The self professed Thruster expert used to say "wheelers are the only way"

 

I had about 200 3 pointers under my belt before I tried my first wheeler in a Thruster, it was also my last wheeler.

 

In the Corby I still do 3 pointers, but a wheeler does give better visibility on the ground. I will use it on narrow strips, where the risk of running off the strip is high.

 

The 3 pointer gets you on the ground at a slower speed and if you wheel it on you will still have to go through that speed with the tail down.

 

How many of you do high speed long taxiing with the tail up?

 

 

[bushcaddy105]

3 point 95% of time, (also counting 2 point in crosswinds, ie the upwind main plus tailwheel). Wheelers usually result from too high an approach speed on short final, plus wind shear causing a loss of headwind down low - without flaps to play with, there's no option for slowing down so wheel it on and wait for the tail to come down. The old story- it takes the right approach to produce the right landing!

 

 

[facthunter]

Only the show -offs, Yenn. Bit dicy if you are near other planes Yeah, I've done it on long runways.. Nev