Tail Draggers and landing

[poteroo]

I've got tricycle undercarriage down pretty well slick now and have decided to go for endorsement on tail draggers. I'd like to hear from all those here, with lots of experience on tail draggers as to the better method of landing the same. I know right way up is good, but, 3 point or wheelers. I've had a bash at both methods and have spoken to others in our club but haven't got enough opinions to weigh up the pros and cons of either way. I'd especially like to hear from any CFI's out there. Thanks people.

Place your left foot on the left rudder pedal, and your right foot on the right rudder pedal, and say after me:

 

I will keep straight, I will keep straight, I will keep straight, I will keep straight, I will keep straight............!

 

You are endorsed only when you can achieve this feat.

 

happy days,

 

 

[facthunter]

The plane has to be moving though. Nev

 

 

[poteroo]

The plane has to be moving though. Nev

Usually, but I've had a few rudder challenged endorsees who I'm sure could groundloop a stationary aircraft!!

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Flinders, The average lightwing is not the easiest thing to wheel on. I think Howie designed it into them for their main intended role which was flight training. They tend to be a little tail heavy when the speed drops, and they are just happier 3 pointing. It is possible to wheel land them of course, and I have done some nice wing-down one and two wheelers, but you do have to work it a bit.

 

About 95% of my landings are three pointers in the Lightwing.................................................Maj...

 

 

[pudestcon]

Flinders, The average lightwing is not the easiest thing to wheel on. I think Howie designed it into them for their main intended role which was flight training. They tend to be a little tail heavy when the speed drops, and they are just happier 3 pointing. It is possible to wheel land them of course, and I have done some nice wing-down one and two wheelers, but you do have to work it a bit.About 95% of my landings are three pointers in the Lightwing.................................................Maj...

What's your technique for landing the Lightwing Maj? Take me through it step by step please.

Pud

 

 

[Bandit12]

Two hail marys, close your eyes and clench? Or is that just me? Others may have a better method

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Shane is right Pud, Eyes and throttle closed over the fence, then wait for the bang, at which time you open eyes again !....

 

No really.........each plane lands a little different, but theyre all similiar if that makes any sense. For instance my LW with 2-stage flaps will be different to land than a standard LW, with no flaps.

 

My landing technique goes something like this.............I was taught many years ago that a good approach leads to a good landing, and a bad approach leads to a bad one !...........so, 1/2 a K out I'm looking for the right airspeed for over the fence, and generally getting slowed down and stable, with one stage of flaps out. I like to land within the first third of the runway, and don't mind sticking it on the numbers if possible. On the other hand I will be seen touching down half way down the runway, if circut traffic dictates, for a quick runway vacate. Obviosly runway length is a factor to be considered on planning touch down point.

 

I always make a note on final if I am ready, or able, to do a go around if necessary. (fuel, strip length, powerlines etc) or wether it's a no-go. (lack of fuel, powerlines, wind, short strip, etc). We have a Wallaby problem at home base so one must be ready. Often you may need to make an unplanned and immediate go-around decision due to an unplanned event. That is not the time to be all over the cockpit checking if all is good, rather it's time for immediate action, which is why I like to be prepared beforehand both physically, and mentally.

 

So my aim point is just beyond the numbers. Just before crossing the fence or even a bit before, the throttle comes back to idle. I'm generally carrying 45-50 Kts at this stage. Then level the aircraft about 2 ft above the runway and get into a 'slow-down further' or 'bleed off the airspeed', mode. This is already happening because the throttle is at idle. I'm also slightly raising the nose when I can, as the big wing on the Lightwing make the perfect airbrake, and very effectivly slows the aircraft just before touchdown.

 

So basically as she decelerates about a foot above the runway, the stick keeps coming back, back, back, and is pretty much against the stop as the wheels touch, generally in a three-pointer, as the tail has dropped because of the low airspeed and the back application of stick.

 

At this minimal airspeed, and with stick all the way back, she has no tendency to bounce at all, and it's all over. The Lightwing also tracks pretty straight so little rudder is required to keep on runway center. I get the flaps off as soon after touchdown as I can, to assist any braking reqd.

 

If I decide on a full flap landing, I'll pull them on about a 1/4 k from the fence which drops the nose a bit and gives your approach angle, which is gently adjusted with light and smooth power applications. The flare with full flaps is more gentle, and the hold off much shorter, and the touch down may be softened if required with slight application of power. Same story, with stick all the way back on touch down, but watch for high sink right at the end with full flaps and low airspeed, which is where the power may be required to arrest any sink.

 

If I decide to do a wheeler it's decided after the initial round-out above the runway, and requires gentle foward stick application instead of gentle back-stick. And I do mean gentle !...just holding the aircraft in a level attitude until the mains roll instead of pulling back-stick to slow the aircraft is the way to go. You can get a bounce off a wheeler but it's usually not much if your gentle, however if it's a good bounce (you wern't gentle!) you'll have to work it a bit more, or go-around.

 

If you've got a cross wind the LW likes a wing down, and the wheeler can be done either with touching on one main only in level attitude, or two pointer with one main and tailwheel......................Hope some of this helps..................................In the wise words of the late Bill Starke.."Flying ?....you do whatever you have to at the time !! ".................................................................Maj......

 

 

[pudestcon]

Thanks for that Maj, I'm always interested in the nitty gritty of how people do stuff, and how it compares with what I do in the Thruster. I must confess that all my landings are wheelers, but I should really practise 3 pointers for the short strip capability or an out landing where you need to be touching down as slow as possible. I'll practise some 3 pointers next time I fly.

 

One of the reasons I asked for your technique Maj is because a number of years ago I did some training in the Lightwing with Gareth Lloyd (Riley owns the Lightwing now) , and couldn't get the landings right, so I moved over to the Gazelle which is a piece of cake in comparison, having a nose wheel of course.

 

I appreciate your post Maj.

 

Pud

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Copy that Maj !

 

I found that the lightwing is very good comparied to my little Parasol which is very light takes a lot more contentration .

 

When ever I been away from flying for a week or two I like to do high speed taxi ,s with the tail up to get the feel of the craft again before I get air borne for me that is the hardist part too manage I found that this realey helps my ground control:plane:

 

 

[Yenn]

It is many years since I flew a Lightwing, but I used to fly one with a 2 stroke and one with a 912. From memory the 2 stroker was much easier to handle. I can't remember if they had flaps or not. I thought they were flapless, but could well be wrong.

 

Go for it Pud, I think you will find the Thruster good to 3 point once you get over the predjudice of past instructors.

 

 

[pudestcon]

No worries Yenn, I'll report back here on how I go.

 

Pud

 

 

[propfarmer]

I learnt in a Jab, have just started flying a thruster, whilst I know my experience is limited, here is my two bob.

 

My mate who is teaching me to land the thruster (he has a couple of thousand hours experience) said when he first bought his thruster he used to wheel on, then he ground looped and has never done a wheeler again!!

 

He also said to basically try to stall the plane less then a foot of the ground, if you can achieve this it will not bounce as there isn't enough speed to get lift, the faster you are going the bigger the bounce. You pay good money to fly so keep flying for as long as you can.

 

Personally I find you really need to focus on the end of the runway once you have touched down, more so than in a nose wheel, be proactive rather than reactive with your feet. Get Dancing

 

 

[facthunter]

Some thrusters will stall before the tailwheel can be placed on the ground. If the plane drops to the ground and the mainwhels hit first, the thing will bounce . Tony Hayes was rejigging them ,at the time he paseed on, His view was that as they are currently, you have to get it close to the stall by the usual holdoff and just before it drops/stalls pull the stick back the last bit. If you can get all three wheels on the ground it will not bounce Wheeling them on requires a very smooth strip, and you are going too fast. Any bumps at that speed you will get airbourne again, and without any power on you can get a good swing.

 

I flew an almost new one when the 2 seater first came out and I was quite easy to fly and I just did a normal 3 pointer. Like all draggy planes if you don't have much speed up your sleeve it needs a positive check (backstick). Especially if you are heavy. Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Pud, I reckon if you are pulling off good wheelers in the Thruster, then you probabily have good feel for the machine. Good 3-pointers in anything are achieved by just slowing the aircraft to it's minimum flying speed, and then it quits flying and drops on. With the stick firm back at that point it ain't going anywhere !....I was taugh innitially 'hold off, hold off, hold off, plop ! Always works fine for me.

 

A three-pointer will never look as sexy as a fancy wheeler, but when you've done several thousand in a row without breaking anything, or even getting close to loosing the aircraft, then that's impressive also.

 

At a recent major airshow after I pulled off a good one, a gentleman with experience commented to me "always nice to see a perfect 3-pointer"...................Always nice to hear !!....it's usually the old story isn't it, you pull off the most perfect landing and your the only one on the field !!!!...............................................................Maj...

 

 

[propfarmer]

Maj, I watched you land a nice 3 pointer at Narromine enroute to Natfly, conditions weren't smooth and the first thought i had was NICE LANDING, then Nice Plane!! Belated I know but impressed none the less... enjoying your input on this thread!

 

 

[Louis Moore]

Place your left foot on the left rudder pedal, and your right foot on the right rudder pedal, and say after me:I will keep straight, I will keep straight, I will keep straight, I will keep straight, I will keep straight............!

You are endorsed only when you can achieve this feat.happy days,

Is that both feet on the same pedal, or on different ones!

 

I thought I had all this landing a T/W plane down, now all you guys are confusing me

 

On a serious note I find when wheeling the Auster I have to have MORE speed. Coming in slow tends to make the old bungees go BOING and bounce me back into the air. I find I need a fair amount of airspeed to pin it nicely. It the same for all aircraft?

 

 

[Tomo]

I find I need a fair amount of airspeed to pin it nicely. It the same for all aircraft?

That's just your excuse for low flying...

 

I find wheelers need more speed otherwise you end up doing a tail low wheeler, which some people rather, but some pedantic pilots say it isn't a proper wheeler if you do that!

 

 

[kiwicrusader]

The 600hr instructor that gave me my initial tailwheel endorsement in a cub had me wheeling it on all the time. The 25000hr Ag pilot that I did my C180 endorsement with had me doing tail low wheelers or 3 pointers only. The 28000hr Ag instructor I did my Ag rating with, would literally hit me if we didn't three point it on. Now with 6000hrs myself of Ag, I always 3 point. Some Ag pilots I work with always wheel, however atleast once a year they flat spot one of the main tyres by locking up the wheel with excessive braking to keep the aircraft straight. These tyres cost $1800 each!!!

 

Take from this what you will.

 

In my humble opinion, the aircraft is easier to control and keep straight after a three point landing. However some aircraft are difficult to 3 point and the risk of bouncing all the way to the end fence warrants a wheeler as the lesser of two evils. A late model C185 with only one or two people in it falls into this category.

 

My 2cents worth anyway....

 

 

[David Isaac]

Don't forget boys ... she is still flying in a 'wheeler' landing, she aint landed til the tails sits down ... soooh .. a real landing is a three pointer. As for having more control on the ground in a wheeler, my experience tells me that is BS cause all wheelers become three pointers when the tails sits down so you still have to keep control right through to tail down and stop. You have a lot more speed in a wheeler and all three pointers touch down at stall speed don't they ... other wise she would still be flying ...

 

 

[pudestcon]

Don't forget boys ... she is still flying in a 'wheeler' landing, she aint landed til the tails sits down ... soooh .. a real landing is a three pointer. As for having more control on the ground in a wheeler, my experience tells me that is BS cause all wheelers become three pointers when the tails sits down so you still have to keep control right through to tail down and stop. You have a lot more speed in a wheeler and all three pointers touch down at stall speed don't they ... other wise she would still be flying ...

So true David. Don't think you have stopped flying until at walking pace - well at least that's my motto.

It was good to catch up with you at Jandakot last week and shoot the breeze for a couple of hours, with you and Riley.

 

Thanks for buying the coffees too!!

 

Pud

 

 

[Guest turk182]

I was taught both and try to give myself an equal amount of practice doing both types of landings, one of the aircraft I fly will do a real nice wheeler at the same IAS as a 3 pointer just happens pretty quickly, I find with wheelers I have to make myself relax and not try to hurry it along, I'm whispering to myself " wait, wait, wait" then touch and pin, three pointers are a bit easier I round out hold the attitude and keep it straight, generally comes down nice and controlled and it doesn't make much difference in a crosswind, I find both methods work as well , although I do tend to prefer a 3 pointer ,with at least the windward tyre and the tail wheel down it feels a bit more connected to the earth

 

Turk

 

 

[David Isaac]

So true David. Don't think you have stopped flying until at walking pace - well at least that's my motto.It was good to catch up with you at Jandakot last week and shoot the breeze for a couple of hours, with you and Riley.

Thanks for buying the coffees too!!

 

Pud

You and Riley are more than welcome, it was great to relax and shoot the breeze with a couple of other blokes with tail wheel disease ... as Turbo said he could just see us, rag and tube all over the floor and gaffa tape everywhere .. he is a bastard that Turbo bloke ...

 

 

[pudestcon]

You and Riley are more than welcome, it was great to relax and shoot the breeze with a couple of other blokes with tail wheel disease ... as Turbo said he could just see us, rag and tube all over the floor and gaffa tape everywhere .. he is a bastard that Turbo bloke ...

He was right though - well sort of.....

Your laptop had plenty of photos showing rag and tube, and that Auster sure is sweet mate. I could see you are a passionate man when it comes to aviation David.

 

Pud

 

 

[dutchroll]

Doing a wheeler in my plane (when it eventually gets here) would be a $30,000 mistake. Prop overhaul or replacement, engine teardown, and accessory driveshaft replacement.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Doing a wheeler in my plane (when it eventually gets here) would be a $30,000 mistake. Prop overhaul or replacement, engine teardown, and accessory driveshaft replacement.

Mate .. problem solved ... stick longer legs on it or trim the prop ...