Bluey Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 Many years ago my passengers helmet come off & went through the prop- thats absolutely not something I would wish on my worst enemy ! I would really hope that this is something all trike pilots were taught to be aware of although, as Blueys experience (& mine !) shows, awareness doesn't guarantee that it won't happen Cheers John Hi John, if you don't mind I think we would all benefit from hearing about the details of your prop strike incident and how you handled it. Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 Although the annoyance is understandable at the passenger not listening to the pilots instructions, it wouldnt be the first time an untethered object has been used in an aircraft or ultralight. On the scale of incidents its not the worst around..don't want to trivialize it though, your aircraft is your baby and you probably are a very safe pilot with high safety standards. Probably take some fun out of the joy of flight for the pax to get a bollocking over it.Not saying i wouldn't be annoyed either, but its good to try and be easy going in recreational aviation whenever possible. Sometimes for a recreational sport, the mood can be a bit serious. I agree, we need to be easy going where possible and resist the temptation to be too up tight about safety. However, an avoidable prop strike caused by stupidity that would most likely lead to massive vibrations and resulting in engine overspeed followed by shutdown and an emergency landing that may or may not be successful is not something I can be laid back about. As pilots, we are ultimately responsible for the safety of all on board regardless of what happens during a flight. This means we have the duty of care over our passengers and must protect them from everything even their own stupidity. If Saturdays flight had led to a prop strike, I would have been held responsible and been accountable for any injuries or damage caused. The passenger could plead ignorance as their defence and in the eyes of the law they would not be in any way responsible. The only way around this would be to prove that they deliberately tried to sabotage the aircraft in an attempt to bring it down. Good luck with that one... Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I doubt you would be held fully responsible. The passenger has accountability to obey safety rules that are clearly explained. As such, they share the accountability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 I'm not sure about that. How do you prove that you informed them of the safety requirements unless it is in a written declaration? A friend of mine had his Microlight crashed by a pilot on a BFR a while ago. The pilot lied about his recent experience and misled the instructor about his total flying experience. The pilot crashed the trike during landing because he had a control reversal 6 feet above the ground. The instructor was unable to react fast enough to prevent the crash. The truth then came out but the pilot in command was deemed to be the instructor and so the pilot who caused the crash was absolved of all legal reponsibility. In this case the pilot had not flown for more than 2 years and so was not eligible for a BFR. He also claimed that he had left his log book at home so the instructor was unable to confirm his claims. Even though this pilot had lied it was the instructors responsibility to check this guys claims. The owner tried to get the guy to pay for half of the substantial damage bill to which he replied: not my responsibility as you were the instructor and PIC. He then informed the owner that he would be claiming for damages to cover income he had lost while recovering from his injuries. To this day not a cent has been paid by this pilot to the owner. The owner obtained legal advice where he was told if he pursued the case he would most likely lose. Bluey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Hi John, if you don't mind I think we would all benefit from hearing about the details of your prop strike incident and how you handled it.Bluey. No problem Bluey - I'm overseas at the moment but will try to root out the incident report & post it when I'm back home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 No problem Bluey - I'm overseas at the moment but will try to root out the incident report & post it when I'm back home Thanks John, I'm looking forward to reading it. Bluey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I remember a report of a accident involving a Drifter that resulted in the death of both pilot and pax when a stowed cockpit cover found it's way into the prop and destroyed the prop. The imbalance caused considerable structual failure. Happened near Wangaratta some time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest extralite Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 A prop failure resulting in a total structure failure sounds dangerous just to be airborne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Likely in a drifter or similar. Goes like.... part blade severs, engine comes out of mountings and rest of prop cuts through the boom. A chipmunk chucked a blade way back. the engine came right out and the plane being tail-heavy enterd a spin and the plane went down into lake Macquarie. Normally a spin in a chippie is fatal as the ROD is high but in this instance it wasn't as the plane had lost some weight. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest extralite Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Does this tend to happen with both wooden and carbon fibre props? I have only flown with metal or carbon fibre props. I know with carbon fibre, they can take a pretty big prop strike and still hold together. If a prop in a Drifter is essentially a critical structural component that cannot be allowed to fail, then choice of prop would also be critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Absolutely critical, as would be appropriate inspections of hubs, blades and engine mounts etc. It is one "negative" of a pusher installation. NOTHING must fall off the engine either. It's interesting what may go through a prop. I used to do balloon or toilet paper dropped out then attempt to cut/burst it. If you get the balloon near prop centre it would often go through the prop and not burst. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan3111 Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Probably the safe thing is not to take any passangers then family . It will save money on fuel ,wear and tear on you aircraft , give your better climb and stall speed. Most of all will save you a packet on court cost defending youself after a miss hap just when you are just giving someone a free ride . hope that clears the air . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinfrost Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Talking prop failure. Chris Sperou was telling me how he had one blade change pitch on his Pitts just as he was about to rotate for aerobatic routine. Quick shut down avoided the engine leaving the A/C. If it had happened seconds later the results would have been disastrous. Someone I know testing a fibre prop for a company with a Jab motor lost a blade, nearly ripped the engine mounts off by the time he shut it down. I often think before rolling. Sudden bad vibration, mags off immediatly and slow aircraft to slowest controllable airspeed . Better to have a controlled force landing than a uncontrolled crash landing. Unless we have these thoughts in the back of our mind it's supprising how long it takes for the penny to drop and in most cases it will be too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I know of two C182 jump aircraft that tossed one blade each. One just on rotation. Engine shut itself down when it twisted in the mounts and mixture control pulled itself to shutoff. The blade was found over 200mts away. Second was in flight. Engine ripped out of mounts and was hanging off control cables and ended up caught between strut and fuselage. Jumpers departed but pilot who was also wearing a rig decided to land the aircraft. Managed to do so and received a broken nose when aircraft pancacked in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan3111 Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 The two engines I have seen loose a blade both in lightwings one 582 (in flight gsc )and other 912. ( three bade gsc) both stop straight away carbs fell off and exhaust was only thing left holding the engines in . All mounts broken free they where both lucky polit to live to tell the tail and outlanded with no damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boingk Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 He also claimed that he had left his log book at home so the instructor was unable to confirm his claims. Even though this pilot had lied it was the instructors responsibility to check this guys claims. And the instructor was surprised that he was responsible after letting the guy fly? Wow. Seriously, "I left it at home" carries no weight. My experience with flying is that if you don't have your gear with you then you don't bl00dy fly! I carry a bag with sunnies, headset, logbook, maps, E6B, certificates and ASIC card with me at all times on the way to an aerodrome... really not that hard. I always assume, too, that if I do not have my logbook or any flight certificates etc then I will be treated as a first-time student. Prop separation / failure Yes, it happens. Another reason for being a bit anal about maintenance as it could definitely save your life. A lot of people skip over the prop but I always give special attention on a preflight as any small cracks or deformities - easily looked over - could cause sudden and catastrophic failure. Replacing at or before rated time is also a good idea, as is checking RPM limitations or time reductions for specific props. Untethered phone I *would* have ripped her a new one and refused to fly with her anymore if she could not follow the rules - flying is not an amusement park ride and can easily result in injury or death if you don't adhere to accepted procedure. I am in no way encouraging people go crazy at passengers who deem the rules superfluous, but I would make it clear to them that they would be on notice and that I'd be informing other pilots at the aerodrome of their misconduct. Obviously a quite word aside and not in front of a group etc would be the way to go, whatever, just so long as they understand the gravity of the situation. Anyway... hope somones having a good time up there today as it looks grand! Cheers - boingk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I know of two C182 jump aircraft that tossed one blade each. One just on rotation. Engine shut itself down when it twisted in the mounts and mixture control pulled itself to shutoff. The blade was found over 200mts away.Second was in flight. Engine ripped out of mounts and was hanging off control cables and ended up caught between strut and fuselage. Jumpers departed but pilot who was also wearing a rig decided to land the aircraft. Managed to do so and received a broken nose when aircraft pancacked in. This and some of the other instances makes on think more seriously about a BRS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted June 1, 2012 Author Share Posted June 1, 2012 And the instructor was surprised that he was responsible after letting the guy fly? Wow. Seriously, "I left it at home" carries no weight. My experience with flying is that if you don't have your gear with you then you don't bl00dy fly! I carry a bag with sunnies, headset, logbook, maps, E6B, certificates and ASIC card with me at all times on the way to an aerodrome... really not that hard. I always assume, too, that if I do not have my logbook or any flight certificates etc then I will be treated as a first-time student. Yes, it happens. Another reason for being a bit anal about maintenance as it could definitely save your life. A lot of people skip over the prop but I always give special attention on a preflight as any small cracks or deformities - easily looked over - could cause sudden and catastrophic failure. Replacing at or before rated time is also a good idea, as is checking RPM limitations or time reductions for specific props. I *would* have ripped her a new one and refused to fly with her anymore if she could not follow the rules - flying is not an amusement park ride and can easily result in injury or death if you don't adhere to accepted procedure. I am in no way encouraging people go crazy at passengers who deem the rules superfluous, but I would make it clear to them that they would be on notice and that I'd be informing other pilots at the aerodrome of their misconduct. Obviously a quite word aside and not in front of a group etc would be the way to go, whatever, just so long as they understand the gravity of the situation. Anyway... hope somones having a good time up there today as it looks grand! Cheers - boingk Part of the problem is that you don't expect anyone to lie to you especially when the vast majority of people do the right thing. Most people only need to get burnt once to realise that passengers or even other pilots you've just met cannot be trusted. Luckily for me the experience didn't end badly as it has for some others. Bluey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Hi John, if you don't mind I think we would all benefit from hearing about the details of your prop strike incident and how you handled it. Bluey. Apologies for the delay returning to this - hopefully better late than never. Posted in memory of DavidH10 who I'm sure would have enjoyed commenting. Cheers John Date/Time: 23/8/2003 1430Z Location: An airfield “somewhere in England” Aircraft: Mainair Blade 912 (weightshift trike - tandem seating configuration) The purpose of the flight was to demonstrate the aircraft to a potential purchaser of the model - a low hour pilot who had previously only flown trikes from a different manufacturer. Approximately 40 minutes into the flight at a height of around 2000ft agl the passenger noticed that the instruments didn’t include a fuel level indicator. Correctly assuming that this was because the fuel level was directly visible in the tank he turned his head to the right and looked down. The visor of his helmet was lifted by the airflow and the increased drag then caused the helmet to pulled off his head. The detached helmet travelled rearwards and was struck by one of the propeller blades which ricocheted it forwards and was observed by the passenger travelling forwards & upwards on the left hand side of the aircraft. My first knowledge of the situation was an appalling vibration from the engine which was so severe that I seriously thought it would detach from the trike. It seemed to me that I took ages to react although the passenger subsequently commented on how quickly I had turned the ignitions off. The passenger was still wearing his headset and was able to advise the cause of the problem and the aircraft was glided down to an uneventful forced landing with no further damage or injury to the occupants. Subsequent inspection of the aircraft revealed that almost the entire length of one propeller (from the start of the aerofoil surface near the hub to the tip) had lost approx ⅔ of its thickness. Fingertip pressure at the tip was sufficient to bend the blade several inches fore and aft and it is testament to the strength of the construction (Warp Drive) that the blade had not completely disintegrated. A second propeller blade showed impact damage to the leading edge and the rear of the wing had a number of tiny holes presumably caused by fragments of the shredded blade. The exhaust muffler was intact but the vibration had shook it out of all the sockets and it was attached only by the tension of the exhaust springs. The radiator rubber mounts had also sheared and the vibration had caused most of the coolant into the catch tank with some lost through the breather. The passenger confirmed that his helmet had been secured correctly prior to flight. Although I hadn’t checked this before he boarded the aircraft he was a microlight pilot and also a motorcyclist so he was very familiar with their operation and another pilot confirmed that he had seen the passenger secure the helmet correctly. Some time later the helmet was returned to the airfield by a member of the public who had witnessed the incident. His attention had been attracted to the aircraft by the sudden loss of engine noise and he watched the helmet fall to the ground (luckily without hitting anything or anyone). The witness was somewhat distraught as at the time he was "expecting to find a head inside". The helmet was the type secured by 2 “D” rings and the strap was still threaded through these although with considerably more play than would be expected for a tight fitting. The aircraft was subsequently inspected by the manufacturer - no further damage was found and it was returned to service with a replacement propeller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Apologies for the delay returning to this - hopefully better late than never.Posted in memory of DavidH10 who I'm sure would have enjoyed commenting. Cheers John Date/Time: 23/8/2003 1430Z Location: An airfield “somewhere in England” Aircraft: Mainair Blade 912 (weightshift trike - tandem seating configuration) I'm glad that the (a) the two persons involved survived this and (b) the aircraft was able to be put back into service. I'm sure there's a good lesson about helmets in this account! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluey Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 That's one he'll of a story and a lucky escape by both of you. Surprising, the lack of structural damage to the engine mounts given that many aircraft experience engine separation from similar damage. Could this be the result of less powerful engines in the trike verses other types? I mean after all our engines tend to not work as hard in cruise. Bluey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Interesting Comments Crezzi, I've seen three or four come off in speedway, associated with some high G aerobatics. In one case as the dust was settling and the steam was rising the Commentator got as far as saying "Oh GOD, I hope his head.........." The primary cause of a helmet coming off is not strapping it on. Aside from that obvious cause, the D Ring straps always need to be tight to the point where they pull, your skin in, or fit behind your jawbones, so the helmet has to pull them off beofre departing your head. Aside from those basics, this is an interesting safety story because it involves forces not usually considered by the designers. Many years ago in speedway we were getting a lot of broken arms in saloon car roll overs, which were very regular in those days. After the post-race arguments where the drivers swore they hadn't been driving with their arm out the window we introduced straps from just above the elbow to the floor of the car. That ended the broken arms, but we had a few fires where the driver released his harness but forgot the floor buckle, so we needed a change. We then fitted strap ends which attach to the central harness release and that has worked well for years, The straps release when you release the buckle in a single action. Later the Head And Neck Support was designed with straps running from the helmet to the shoulders, and this stopped the drivers heads coming off. (no I only made that up, it reduces neck/upper spine injuries) The HANS may possibly prevent the helmet being blown off, but they are expensive. A simple strap is cheap, but would need to be investigated in case it cause a neck injury during a tumble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusty Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 I have had two incidents involving props, the first on a edge X trike as a passenger and after several circuits doing touch and go's, the trike had landed and when applying power to take off again one of the blades (4 bladed brolga) delaminated. No undue vibration was experienced as the power was reduced immediately then the engine shut down. The second incident was in a edge X outback and again I was the passenger when the pilots helmet visor came adrift and went through the prop (helmets that airborne supply and if the screws are not kept tight the visor has a tendancy to raise when the wind gets under it). On this occasion the prop was a 3 bladed warp drive and no damage and barely a tiny faint mark on one of the blades (speaks well of the warp drives). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herm Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 I usually ask if they want to take photos. That prompts them to disclose whether they have a camera, of any type. Then I ask if they have any loose items on them, explaining at the same time that something like a camera or phone, if untethered could be ripped from their hands by the slipstream and turn a joy flight into an in flight emergency. For that reason I explain that it must be tethered.I also turn around every now and then while talking to them, just to check they are ok. In doing so I would become aware of the sort of non-compliance you describe. As for that person, Bluey, put her on the banned passenger list. Hi David. I got one of those small car mirrors you stick to the left side mirrors of cars. They help with blind spots. I fitted it to the front bar and it sits at a perfect angle to see the passenger. Held on with a cable clamp. It has a slight curve so you can see all of them and cost $6... It also allows you to see them be sick inside your helmet LOL..... Yuk. ... Not sure why I added that part 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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