Off airport landings legality

[Hongie]

So there are lots of videos on YouTube et cetera, of aircraft landing on beaches, gravel bars in rivers and such...

 

What is the legality in Australia? Looks fun would love to do the same.

 

 

[kaz3g]

So there are lots of videos on YouTube et cetera, of aircraft landing on beaches, gravel bars in rivers and such...What is the legality in Australia? Looks fun would love to do the same.

CAAP92-1 gives the necessary. What it means is if you blow it and the site does not comply with the recommendation in the Advisory, then you are in the clag.

 

Kaz

 

Kaz

 

 

[Hongie]

thanks kaz, i knew someone would have a definative answer for me

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

There are, however plenty of ALAs that do not conform to the "Guidelines", often due to height-distance of obstacles from the flight path. As I recall, "Old Bar" was such an ALA.

 

Most farm strips do not conform, however it is still legal to land on them, provided you have the owner's permission. Your insurance company may have other constraints.

 

As far as public land is concerned (beaches, parks etc.), I'm don't know.

 

 

[facthunter]

If your engine is failing, anywhere that is the safest (or you think it is) is useable. I say this so as not to frighten people into being reluctant to do an"outlanding" for weather, sickness etc Always better to put down with an engine running than to wait for it to stop, or continue over rough country trying to get to an airport when there is no certainty of making it. Nev

 

 

[Louis Moore]

It is a good question, I have had the same one myself a few times. I have noticed that a few ultralight advertisements are using aircraft landed on beaches and doing out landing to promote their machines.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I read somewhere once that the state government own the land from the high tide point, while the low tide point and out to sea is federal, im not sure how true this is, but if it is true, apparently at low tide there is a strip of no mans land..;)

 

 

[facthunter]

And they advertise Toorak tractors going to the most inaccessable places too. Doesn't mean that you REALLY could, but SELLS things. The power of advertising. Never shows the "downside" Nev

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

And they advertise Toorak tractors going to the most inaccessable places too. Doesn't mean that you REALLY could, but SELLS things. The power of advertising. Never shows the "downside" Nev

For example, beach driving is unlawful in Victoria, but is permitted in South Australia, such as at Robe and along the beach in front of The Coorong. Also permitted in parts, at least, of Queensland.

When flying over The Coorong, recently, I noticed that there were 4WD vehicles driving through one of the shallower salt water lakes. Not too smart IMHO, and of dubious legality.

 

 

[facthunter]

If you want to keep your SUV keep it away from salt. I used to work on the bigger army "ducks" based on the GMC 6x6 truck. People don't realise how corrosive salt is. You can't really wash it completely out of anything. Nev

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I read somewhere once that the state government own the land from the high tide point, while the low tide point and out to sea is federal, im not sure how true this is, but if it is true, apparently at low tide there is a strip of no mans land..;)

I think "land" ends at the high tide line, and below that is "Australian Territorial Waters", which may contain "Marine Reserves". Marine Reserves are managed by the Federal Government.

I utilised that demarcation to fly at 500' AGL along part of The Coorong, about 50 metres out to sea, whereas I climbed to 1,000' AGL to move inland to comply with the 1,000' restriction over the National Park.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Just to be clear the government 'owns' absolutely nothing. It also has no money whatsoever for that matter. Everything is of the people, the citizens of Australia (including the debt they have borrowed in our name unfortunately).

 

Sometimes it would be an off-field landing for reasons of safety - for example if you were getting tired and needed a short break or had to suddenly er let loose something. Not to mention a sudden change in the weather. Is that not a legitimate reason?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Just to be clear the government 'owns' absolutely nothing. It also has no money whatsoever for that matter. Everything is of the people, the citizens of Australia (including the debt they have borrowed in our name unfortunately).

Sweet, well its my beach then, I give myself permission to land there..As per the regs..

 

 

[68volksy]

There'd be the normal trespass rules to apply also i'd imagine. Most beaches are off-limits to powered vehicle as Local Councils have the say of what can use the public spaces in their area and when so I'd suspect they'd be the ones who you would need to get permission from to use. You'll find most beaches are in local government areas and sign-posted as to what use they can be put. Mind you if you're flying low and slow enough to read the signs... If you're planning a beach landing i'd check with the local Council first - no doubt there are some beaches around the country that are actually designated ALA's.

 

All roads in the country have very strict rules about trespass and registered vehicles. The son of a lady at work managed to score himself a fine for riding a childs toy tricycle on a public road.

 

Private land is however pretty much entirely up to the landowner as to its use by aircraft. If you've got their permission then there's no legal issue with landing there from what I can figure. Whether it's safe to land there is an entirely different question. A landowner can be taking on possibly a phenomenal amount of liability by saying "you can land here" though as it no doubt creates a duty of care and any lapse in that duty is then open to litigation. Most farmers insurance policies i've seen exclude aviation-related activities.

 

In a practical sense it all goes out the window in an emergency situation however the landowner is still able to sue for and damages caused to them or their land (same as in a car accident). That's why it's best to carry insurance.

 

 

[naremman]

CAAP92-1 gives the necessary. What it means is if you blow it and the site does not comply with the recommendation in the Advisory, then you are in the clag.Kaz

 

Kaz, would not having the permission of the owner or responsible entity of any landind site preceede any consideration of CAAP 92.1?

 

Upon sending our kids to boarding school we advised them that it is not what you do that you are ever held accountable for, it is what you get caught doing that you will be held to account to. How often in operating in the bush is it that we accept some compromise to CAAP 92.1 in order to fly? We are ever mindful that should we stack it that we going to be on the backfoot mounting a defence.

 

A few of us in our local patch have lobbied our Shire about our airstrip over the past few years, constantly quoting CAAP 92.1. We may as well have addressed the nearest brick wall with our craniums. Having the RFDS operating into the airstrip has been our principal concern, but the Shire informed us they had communicated with the RFDS, and stated that the RFDS had informed them that "they have landed in far worse airstrip condition around the State than ............"!!

 

Sadly, I have arrived at the point that I am sick of standing under inclining buckets when I attemp to incorporate aviation safety into operations at our local airstrip, and will invoke silence, coupled with considerable prayer as an alternative strategy.

[eightyknots]

I read somewhere once that the state government own the land from the high tide point, while the low tide point and out to sea is federal, im not sure how true this is, but if it is true, apparently at low tide there is a strip of no mans land..;)

That sounds like Terra Nullius to me.

 

 

[kaz3g]

If your engine is failing, anywhere that is the safest (or you think it is) is useable. I say this so as not to frighten people into being reluctant to do an"outlanding" for weather, sickness etc Always better to put down with an engine running than to wait for it to stop, or continue over rough country trying to get to an airport when there is no certainty of making it. Nev

A good point, Nev. much better to have a controlled arrival than wait until things are completely out of hand and blow it big time.

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

That sounds like Terra Nullius to me.

State "owns" the intertidal zone plus any embayments or inlets. Commonwealth "owns" from low water mark to edge of continental shelf.

 

State also usually has control of the foreshore.

 

The only reason that councils get into the act on beaches is because they are the appointed committee of management over the crown land.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

For example, beach driving is unlawful in Victoria, but is permitted in South Australia, such as at Robe and along the beach in front of The Coorong. Also permitted in parts, at least, of Queensland.When flying over The Coorong, recently, I noticed that there were 4WD vehicles driving through one of the shallower salt water lakes. Not too smart IMHO, and of dubious legality.

Was that on the Mega Fauners Fly Away?? I missed out on catching up with the group at Goolwa Airport, due to work commitments. :|

 

 

[terryc]

From my training with two cfi's they said any and all areas bar none are available to land on if needed. Obviously safety to other people is paramount and I'm sure no one's going to take out a preschool to save themselves but what's legal and what's not is not an issue if you have a problem. Dead people don't have to explain anything. I think someone made the point that if your doubtful of making your destination then you land. The land owners opinion doesn't count. [He might make it sound like it does ] A friend of mine needed to land on a farm due to low fog because he didn't want to try and run and risk it. He was met by a farmer and his wife with a big smile, a three course meal and a bed for the night. Then he had a dickin's of a job getting them to accept $50.00 for there trouble. My Point is worry about the reception you might get after your safe. But of course I live in Tasmania, we have a much more lay back attitude down here.

 

 

[kaz3g]

The CAAPs are advisories...you don't have to comply but if something goes wrong it's a pretty good argument that you landed somewhere unsafe.

 

That said, if the landing site is an ALA, you are sweet irrespective of any departures from the advisory because the powers that be have said its ok.

 

If you have an engine failure and force land somewhere unsuitable, you have a pretty good reason for not following the advisory providing your engine failure was not attributable to you (eg fuel exhaustion).

 

Kaz

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

State "owns" the intertidal zone plus any embayments or inlets. Commonwealth "owns" from low water mark to edge of continental shelf.

International waters boundary?

 

Reminds me of when I was in central California a few months back, some Green kook in government had severely restricted most of the commercial fishing, in one spot the fleet had gone from 38 boats down to 2. Great if you are a fish - except that a whole bunch of Chinese fishing boats were just a few miles off the coast grabbing anything that moved.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Was that on the Mega Fauners Fly Away?? I missed out on catching up with the group at Goolwa Airport, due to work commitments. :|

Yes. Stayed 3 days in Goolwa and took the train ride to Victor Harbour. An enjoyable day. A number flew to Kangaroo Is., but I took my wife for a 3 hour fly up and back along The Coorong.

Sorry we missed meeting.

 

 

[terryc]

The CAAPs are advisories...you don't have to comply but if something goes wrong it's a pretty good argument that you landed somewhere unsafe.That said, if the landing site is an ALA, you are sweet irrespective of any departures from the advisory because the powers that be have said its ok.

 

If you have an engine failure and force land somewhere unsuitable, you have a pretty good reason for not following the advisory providing your engine failure was not attributable to you (eg fuel exhaustion).

 

Kaz

Kaz, I think you are being too pedantic on this very important subject about what's legal and what's not. If you have an engine failure we do not want low hour pilots thinking is this my fault, will I be in trouble, can I talk my way out of this. We need them to be able to have a clear head and make good sound decisions and carry them out. The

legality of it will come along in due course. Their first responsibility is their life and that of their passenger.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Kaz, I think you are being too pedantic on this very important subject about what's legal and what's not........

Hi Terry

 

Sorry you think I am being pedantic, must be the lawyer coming out in me.

 

But read the last para of the post above and my earlier post where I agree the best response to severe mechanical failure is to get on the deck ASAP. This puts it all in context.

 

To be honest, I doubt there are many pilots - new or old - who will stop to think about a possible rap on the knuckles when faced with a stoppage. When it happens, you just want to get on terra firma quick smart. The trap is to try to stretch the glide at the end.

 

And the best insurance against something happening is to watch the weather and maintain your aircraft to the proper standard.

 

Kaz