You have been told - by kevin walters

[Bob Llewellyn]

The thing about it is that IF you don't quite make it you are in deep $#iT. A lot lose control which is the worst thing you can do. It often rolls over the upward wing and goes in straight on the nose. If you don't make the strip you go in downwind faster in an area you wouldn't want to be, at best. Nev

I think the key phrase is energy management... work out a contingency plan, that will not take you out of your familiarity with the aeroplane - "comfort zone" - and stick to it. My comfort zone varies a bit with currency, as well as my type experience with simulated engine failure (I earned a mild commment from an instructor, when doing a biennial in a Drifter, I followed a T-83 engine-out flightpath, and had to slip hard to get it into the chosen paddock. He pointed out that I could'veused a nearby road, or glid back to the airstrip from the height I started...).

I personally distrust country roads, as there are thin wires in all sorts of odd spots...

 

 

[facthunter]

Roads have trees wires and unexpected traffic. Good way to get in the news. Nev

 

 

[eightyknots]

The impossible turn has come into the spotlight once again, as it seems to do all too often.

 

I am so sad about our Forum Friend, maj.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

The impossible turn has come into the spotlight once again, as it seems to do all too often.I am so sad about or Forum Friend, maj.

Hi 80kts FYI this is my preflight reminder that I use as a reminder. It was told to me by my instructor at Mackay.

 

"SAFETY BRIEF

 

To be said every time before entering the runway.

 

When I have a problem on the runway I will close the throttle, apply the brakes and switch off.

 

When I have an engine failure below 500 feet AGL (Marian 600) I will land the aircraft straight ahead within 30 degrees of the nose. [ I added to say (to myself) when passed above 500 feet AGL so I can alter my options on an engine failure; (I got the idea from gliding when on winch launches we would say aloud when passing 400 feet AGL as this was the cut off for landing ahead)

 

When I have an engine failure above 500 AGL (Marian 600) feet I will turn downwind and land on opposite runway.

 

Tell passenger to keep feet back away from rudder pedals."

 

I believe it is a help to me.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[eightyknots]

Hi 80kts FYI this is my preflight reminder that I use as a reminder. It was told to me by my instructor at Mackay."SAFETY BRIEF

 

To be said every time before entering the runway.

 

When I have a problem on the runway I will close the throttle, apply the brakes and switch off.

 

When I have an engine failure below 500 feet AGL (Marian 600) I will land the aircraft straight ahead within 30 degrees of the nose. [ I added to say (to myself) when passed above 500 feet AGL so I can alter my options on an engine failure; (I got the idea from gliding when on winch launches we would say aloud when passing 400 feet AGL as this was the cut off for landing ahead)

 

When I have an engine failure above 500 AGL (Marian 600) feet I will turn downwind and land on opposite runway.

 

Tell passenger to keep feet back away from rudder pedals."

 

I believe it is a help to me.

 

Regards

 

Mike

Very good advice that just has to be adhered to!

 

 

[dan3111]

I think its very hard to put a height on it as so many factors , length of strip, wind direction speed of wind ,tree height , how much weight on board , is it the normal plane you fly, and how much notice you get a miss first etc , i look back at all the AUF greats and most they died in aircraft operating at the time under 500 feet . So may be 750 feet is more of a safe height to do any turn as the greats didn,t make it under 500 feet .

 

 

[Kamloops]

Nothing says that anyone can for sure make it back to the runway in a crappy glider, which is what a powered plane is once the engine or engines stop.

 

Height is sure no guarantee.

 

Be it 500' or 1500'.

 

If there is any doubt is it worth the risk to try.

 

???

 

It has to be a personal choice.

 

And you better hope that runway is clear when you get back to it if that is your choice.

 

I've never had to make that choice.

 

But think I would likely be looking for a field or some alternative closer to the line of my flight path.

 

 

[facthunter]

Achieving a particular height doesn't guarantee a safe turn back.. You have to get high NEAR the aerodrome. You do this best when there is a strong headwind applying at the take-off, but the landing is going to be faster and more damaging if you muck it up, and how many say 15 knot tailwind landings have you done lately? Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

So basically, pilots can practise EFATO until the cows come home knowing subconsciously full well that when practising, they have the engine at idle and can use it . When it actually happens for real, its a lottery on how the pilot is going to react regardless of experience.

 

 

[winsor68]

It's as simple as this IMO.

 

I've heard all sorts of experienced pilots tell me about the time they safely landed an aircraft back on the strip after coming up against problems in the air...and I now know all sorts of experienced pilots who are dead. The one thing they had in common... A SIMPLE BELIEF THAT IT WON'T HAPPEN TO ME TODAY. The same simple belief we all have.

 

 

[facthunter]

When you have an instructor with you you can pretend to be making the "RIGHT" decisions as you want to do what the instructor wants for a lot of reasons. You know what he has tried to tell you and even though you don't understand or agree with it you don't want an issue, or displease him. You also have the security of knowing that if you get too far offside you will be "saved" by him being there.

 

When the" buck stops with you" you might be an entirely different person. Nervy, risk taking, easily overloaded under pressure, Do the checks, but miss things. If you are going to assess yourself you must be brutally honest to get anything like the real answer. FLYING is not for everyone. I will keep saying that because after a lot of years flying with something over I reckon well over a thousand pilots ranging from decorated WW2 Fighters and bombers through aero club types and later military fighter jocks, helicopter pilots from Vietnam, GA U/L abinitio (of all ages) there are some who are not comfortable, and may never be. If that is the situation either correct it or do the obvious. Don't over react to some event though. Do it as a calm decision in your best interests. This is probably an unusual post but it might help some get through some issues. Pilots only get jobs in complicated equipment by having the correct training. (When things are done correctly). TRAINING is the difference between them and you. Nev

 

 

[SDQDI]

So basically, pilots can practise EFATO until the cows come home knowing subconsciously full well that when practising, they have the engine at idle and can use it . When it actually happens for real, its a lottery on how the pilot is going to react regardless of experience.

Maybe we are training for EFATOs the wrong way. Currently we have the power cut and get to land straight ahead with an instructor and the only training we do on a turn back is off our own bat. I know, even with power available, doing a simulated EFATO with a turn back still has the risk of a stall/spin but maybe if it was practiced with an instructor in our initial training we would all be a lot more aware of why we don't/shouldn't attempt it. Not too different to doing stalls to show exactly why it isn't a good thing.

Maybe in initial training may be too early? But it seems to me if things like this aren't included in our initial training then the majority of pilots don't get around to doing them.

 

 

[facthunter]

You don't even do proper stall training. How often will an unintended stall be like what most have been shown? The recovery technique will kill you under about 300'. Nev

 

 

[eightyknots]

You don't even do proper stall training. How often will an unintended stall be like what most have been shown? The recovery technique will kill you under about 300'. Nev

That is not very comforting Nev!

 

 

[Yenn]

We are all supposed to repeat the mantra about EFATO, land straight ahead etc.

 

My personal opinion is that it is of no use to repeat the things we are supposed to do, before the take off. we should always be flying the aeroplane and all the things we are supposed to say are just a distraction.

 

I have survived an EFATO without using checklists or repeating verbally what i should do. I just did it. I have also had various other emergencies and each time I was happy working out in my head what was wrong and what to do. No checklists, at least not in a single engine light aircraft. The problem comes when i get into something odd, such as an injected engine that needs electricity to keep running. Then would a check list be quick enough? I prefer to have a good command of the systems and do it all in my head. It even worked in one aircraft that had upside down switches ie down for on, but you must think.

 

 

[IBob]

I am a novice, but I think I can still add something to all this:

 

1. I parachuted for a number of years, way back, when canopy malfunctions were quite common. So it was not a question of if, but when, and that idea sunk in. Accordingly, we trained as students to deal with malfunctions ('cut away' or release the main first, then deploy the reserve). This was practiced in a suspended harness on the ground, which might also be shaken and spun to 'simulate' an unstable malfunction. Okay, it was basic, but it was a start.

 

From there, since it was when, not if, you saw jumpers of all degrees of experience quietly going through the motions prior to loading up, or even in the plane. We never stopped mentally practicing. And I think, in that way, the idea became embedded, and the action was quick and decisive when the time came.

 

And I can report that, while we all wondered how we would manage when the first time came, in almost every case, the response was textbook.

 

2. While this is anything but a perfect parallel (reserve deployment is over in a few swift reflexive movements, while the EFATO pilot must fly that entire trip down), perhaps the decisiveness can be taught and reinforced. For myself, after reading here and recent events, I know i shall be starting with my home strips, visualising EFATO and my necessary responses to that. And I shall add it as a continual focused (not 'routine') part of my flying.

 

3. One more thought that may be of help: I believe the idea that something is 'not an option' can be learnt and embedded. Or that has been my experience, and for me that will be part of my visualisation: turning back will not be an option. Easy to say, I know, but I believe I can hold to that.

 

Bob

 

 

[eightyknots]

[ATTACH=full]39713[/ATTACH]

 

I am a novice, but I think I can still add something to all this:1. I parachuted for a number of years, way back, when canopy malfunctions were quite common. So it was not a question of if, but when, and that idea sunk in. Accordingly, we trained as students to deal with malfunctions ('cut away' or release the main first, then deploy the reserve). This was practiced in a suspended harness on the ground, which might also be shaken and spun to 'simulate' an unstable malfunction. Okay, it was basic, but it was a start.

 

From there, since it was when, not if, you saw jumpers of all degrees of experience quietly going through the motions prior to loading up, or even in the plane. We never stopped mentally practicing. And I think, in that way, the idea became embedded, and the action was quick and decisive when the time came.

 

And I can report that, while we all wondered how we would manage when the first time came, in almost every case, the response was textbook.

 

2. While this is anything but a perfect parallel (reserve deployment is over in a few swift reflexive movements, while the EFATO pilot must fly that entire trip down), perhaps the decisiveness can be taught and reinforced. For myself, after reading here and recent events, I know i shall be starting with my home strips, visualising EFATO and my necessary responses to that. And I shall add it as a continual focused (not 'routine') part of my flying.

 

3. One more thought that may be of help: I believe the idea that something is 'not an option' can be learnt and embedded. Or that has been my experience, and for me that will be part of my visualisation: turning back will not be an option. Easy to say, I know, but I believe I can hold to that.

 

Bob

 

Point 3 is very important.

 

 

[2tonne]

3. One more thought that may be of help: I believe the idea that something is 'not an option' can be learnt and embedded. Or that has been my experience, and for me that will be part of my visualisation: turning back will not be an option. Easy to say, I know, but I believe I can hold to that.

That is the way that I was trained in the J160. I was instructed that if you have an EFATO and haven't already turned crosswind, then the turn back for the runway is not an option. Not so straight forward if departing without a crosswind turn though.

 

 

[Kamloops]

You would be shocked at how few twin engine pilots practice true engine out work....from go arounds to stalls etc.

 

Or could even recite by memory what to do if they have an in flight fire, or many other basic items.

 

Some don't even know the best glide speed for their plane.

 

They never discuss prior to take off with their passengers what to do incase of a crash.

 

The level of current training most do at least here locally is pathetic.

 

So it sure is not surprising they are clueless what to do when the prop stops at 100 feet agl....many won't react well at 3000 agl.

 

 

[johnm]

........... so with limited options - turning crosswind as early as you can could be a a safe ® option ?

 

 

[Mick]

........... so with limited options - turning crosswind as early as you can could be a a safe ® option ?

That is something I have done in places where there are no good options straight ahead & it makes available other better options in the direction of the turn.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Maybe we are training for EFATOs the wrong way. Currently we have the power cut and get to land straight ahead with an instructor and the only training we do on a turn back is off our own bat. I know, even with power available, doing a simulated EFATO with a turn back still has the risk of a stall/spin but maybe if it was practiced with an instructor in our initial training we would all be a lot more aware of why we don't/shouldn't attempt it. Not too different to doing stalls to show exactly why it isn't a good thing.Maybe in initial training may be too early? But it seems to me if things like this aren't included in our initial training then the majority of pilots don't get around to doing them.

Agree, there is no point IMO pulling the power at 50 feet with a lot of runway available. It has to be pulled on up wind and at a point where making it back to the runway is simply not an option.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Agree, there is no point IMO pulling the power at 50 feet with a lot of runway available. It has to be pulled on up wind and at a point where making it back to the runway is simply not an option.

I would disagree because that means you would go in if you made the slightest error, so you don't want to add risk just for a practice.

 

I also don't think practising base on images or location will help, because in an EFATO your available time is also in seconds.

 

The EFATO threads are always muddied by people referring to situations which not "Engine Failure After Takeoff" as it is meant, but forced landings in the circuit. One person recently claimed four EFATOS, but three of them were just forced landings.

 

In the forced landings you do have some alternative options and you do have some time to plan. EFATO doesn't mean five minutes after take off.

 

The EFATO is going to occur some time on your climb out heading before you turn crosswind, and in that sector, the nose is pointing upward, and you may have some rudder on to counteract engine torque - not a good starting point for a glide, so control action needs to be instantaneous.

 

Therefore your reaction needs to be subconscious.

 

Therefore you have to imprint the subconscious rather than practice "thought out" EFATOS based on low level situations alone.

 

I was lucky enough to know the value of "subconscious imprints" from racing and it saved my legs a few times, and I was even luckier that my first GA Instructor did the same.

 

His training was "engine off; stick forward, land ahead between the objects" and you picked the objects after the aircraft was stable, and every time we did it he imprinted that message. In every case he chose a point at maybe three or four hundred feet where you might be tempted to try elsewhere than straight ahead.

 

The reason it needs to be imprinted into your subconscious is that if you have to think, firstly there's too much delay, secondly you may commit to an impossible scenario.

 

In twelve years of racing, I've experienced many different reactions to an emergency.

 

In some, where I had some slight indication it was coming, I just made a routine safe decision.

 

In one or two unusual ones I froze in terror and wasn't able to avoid the inevitable, but the safety equipment took care of it.

 

In one I spent three or four seconds of "This can't be happening" to diagnose a broken radius rod which could have sent me high into the air.

 

But in most cases I avoided the routine crashes because my hands and foot had already acted before I could think and stuff it up.

 

 

[Camel]

In my opinion, EFATO training is firstly about getting airspeed and secondly finding somewhere within 30 deg either side to land after a take off ! Anything outside of this is engine failure training and also should be done and in different legs of circuit and in normal flight. If in EFATO training airspeed is not recovered immediately there will be a problem, light aircraft lose speed quickly , when the power is stopped the nose is put down immediately to get or maintain airspeed and then you can glide to your arrival. The reason for a stall spin will be related to failure to maintain airspeed first !

 

 

[Camel]

An excellent EFATO training video, but he says 45 deg either side.

 

There are lots of videos on YouTube and well worth watching. Sorry to bore you !