Spinning in the clouds

[Ultralights]

first lesson of a fellow forumite in spinning.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw75rNaTNT0

 

 

[Tomo]

Woohoo!

 

 

[Owi]

Wow! Thanks, Ultralights, that was a most useful and informative video. I'm usually pretty nervous about doing stuff like that (I even get highly anxious when practicing stalls) but this video shows me that spins can even be fun. Recoverable with the appropriate corrective inputs.

 

 

[Compulsion]

I have done that a few times in a glider. I don't want to do it in the jabiru though.

 

 

[eightyknots]

first lesson of a fellow forumite in spinning.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw75rNaTNT0

Way to go! I learned quite a lot from that short clip.

 

That's not in your Sav; what were you flying in, UL?

 

 

[seb7701]

Great vid. It just again highlights how, with proper practise, occurrences such as spins can be turned into something a little more routine and thus more manageable. (with enough height that is...) Definately have to get me some spin training!

 

 

[brilin_air]

Excellent video!

 

Although the big fan stopping at the front would make me panic a bit.

 

I couldn't do it, I would be like this:

 

 

-Linda

 

 

[pylon500]

Interesting video, some observations;

 

These are what I would term 'aerobatic' spin entries, via the use of full back stick and rudder while still at flying speed.

 

This usually results in a snap roll which will stabilise into a spin after a turn or two (as the commentary says)

 

Real spins occur at very low or stalling speed, often when concentrating on some other problem like an engine failure or trying to stretch a glide when turning low on final.

 

It is more important to be able to recognise the situation or onset of the stall, ie; buffet, heavy elevators yet vague ailerons, or the 'quiet' of the aircraft.

 

As for the recovery shown, I've never seen this method before, it works on this aircraft, (obviously) but I'm not too sure why?

 

There are very few aircraft that will remain in the stalled (and therefore spinning) attitude when you release the stick and pedals, as he demonstrates.

 

His recovery is to put hands on dash and apply opposite rudder, implying that rudder alone is stopping the spin?, or are we to assume that the plane is so pitch sensitive that the act of two people leaning forward is enough to unstall the aircraft while the rudder stops the rotation?

 

Would be interested to know what type of plane it is...?

 

The engine stopping is a bit of a concern, I'm assuming it runs out of fuel within three rotations?!

 

Maybe the use of a fuel pump would be prudent.

 

All in all an interesting video, but I think the more generic version of recovery, "Stick going forward with opposite rudder until rotation stops, then recover", is the preferred method.

 

Arthur.

 

ps, remember kids, don't try this at home, we're not allowed!!

 

 

[Bryon]

I wanna do it!!

 

I wanna do it!!!!!

 

 

[planedriver]

Loved the video Rob, but not sure that my breakfast would enjoy it as much.

 

Was that an Alfa160A with Rach in the hot seat?

 

Alan

 

 

[Bruce Robbins]

Interesting video, some observations;These are what I would term 'aerobatic' spin entries, via the use of full back stick and rudder while still at flying speed.

...........the recovery shown, I've never seen this method before, it works on this aircraft, (obviously) but I'm not too sure why?

 

.........Would be interested to know what type of plane it is...?

 

G'Day Arthur,

 

How's sunny Taree?

 

I think you'll find the aircraft is a carburetted Robin, the spin recovery technique is a form of the Mueller-Beggs recovery with the hands on the dash to ensure NO elevator input and centalised ailerons. Taught by Noel Kruse of the Sydney Aerobatic School. The Mueller-Beggs technique was a result of experienced aerobatic pilots spinning in. It does not work on all aircraft.

 

Cheers,

 

Bruce

[Louis Moore]

My auster used to be spin rated before it was RA reg'd, I also had an old 150 that was spin rated too FUN

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Wow Sally, your very calm.... Nice Vid...

 

 

[dlps73]

Hi Arthur - if you Google "The Muller-Beggs Emergency Spin Recover Procedure" you'll find the recommendation is exactly that - Close Throttle, Hands off Stick, Opposite Rudder until Spin stops, Neutralise and pull level. In the Robin (I think that might be the aircraft in the video), after the spin had stopped, we actually used to let the speed build up to about 160knots from memory which would ensure an airstart.

 

The first spin I did (with an instructor) was a ten turn one from 6000' (this was standard in the old Sydney Aerobatic School) it was unbelievably disorientating and I know without a shadow of doubt that there would have been no chance of me ever extracting the aircraft from that situation irrespective of the fact that I'd been told the correct procedures.

 

Yes, spinning is a lot of fun - especially with the engine stopped as it's reasonably quiet, but you need the right instruction, aircraft and height.

 

Cheers.........Doug

 

 

[AeroGirl]

Wow Sally, your very calm.... Nice Vid...

Thanks, it was so so much fun, loved it, can't wait for my next spinning lesson this Saturday (if the rain stays away that is). :)

 

 

[AeroGirl]

Loved the video Rob, but not sure that my breakfast would enjoy it as much.Was that an Alfa160A with Rach in the hot seat?

Alan

No, it was me, Sally, yes it was an Alpha 160.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Hahaha... I've flown with rach, and I can tell you the expletives would be fast and furious if that was her... Lol... Difficult to fly when your laughing your ass off at the interesting combinations of verbs, nouns and some others that I'm not sure how to categorize...lol...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Looks like great training...

 

 

[AeroGirl]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT INSTRUCTIONAL, I AM NOT TEACHING YOU ANYTHING, DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF. UNLESS YOU HAVE A SPIN ENDORSEMENT AND THE AIRCRAFT IS ENDORSED FOR SPINNING, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SPIN INTENTIONALLY!!!! I TAKE NO RESPONSIBLY FOR YOUR STUPIDITY!!!!

 

That being said, if you want to do this, go to your local flying school that specialises in aerobatics, like Red Baron in Bankstown, and get taught advanced aircraft handling techniques, it is a hell of a lot of fun.

 

OK, so what is happening in the video.

 

It all starts with stalling, when in a stall situation, a lot of pilots are taught to push the stick forward to unstall the aircraft and recover within the prescribed 150' allowance for a PPL pilot (I am not sure what the allowance is for RA Aus pilots). While this may be sufficient to allow you to pass your check flights, it is by no means safe. What happens if you stall the aircraft on very late final at 60'? One of the first lessons I had learning aerobatics was on stall recovery techniques, and taught how to recover within 20', which is the requirement of my school to pass, I can now do this, and also recover in 10'. It is actually quite simple, release back pressure sufficient to move the angle of attack below the critical angle of attack, and you are unstalled. I was also taught to recognise the stall without the use of stall warnings, you can stall an aircraft at any speed, the stall speed is the stall speed under a specific set of conditions, I have actually stalled an aircraft at well above the stall speed indicated in the aircrafts flight manual.

 

During my PPL, I was shown spinning and spin recovery in a Cessna 172, now the 172 is not the easiest plane to spin, part of the reason they make such good training aircraft. In my spin recovery training during my PPL I was taught if you got into a spin, use full opposite rudder, there was nothing about taking my hands off the controls, but I was not told to push the yoke forward either, just to apply full opposite rudder. Spins in the 172 consisted of about 1.5 - 2 rotations, not a fully developed spin by any means (no auto rotation), only the incipient stage of a spin.

 

Now a real fully developed spin was not something I had experienced until last weekend in the Alpha 160, as part of my aerobatics training, you also get your spinning endorsement, which is what I am learning now, this will allow me to 'try this at home' both solo and with passengers, in aircraft endorse to spin. In a spin there are two stages of spinning, the Incipient Spin, and the Fully Developed Spin.

 

Incipient Spin Stage

 

To initiate the spin, you need two situations, a stalled aircraft and yaw. Now remember that an aircraft can stall at any speed, not just at the 'stall speed' stated in the aircraft manual. In the video I have reduced the speed, and at around 60 knots (still higher than the indicated stall speed), using both hands I have pulled the stick all the way back, thus stalling the aircraft, and at the same time applied full rudder (in this case to the left), thus creating yaw. This causes the aircraft to enter the Incipient Spin stage of the spin. The Incipient Spin stage is the time from entering the spin, and the time the aircraft enters auto-rotation or the Fully Developed Spin stage. During the Incipient Spin stage, you can unstall the aircraft using full opposite rudder, or you could also simply centralise all controls, which is the technique I have been taught, centralising the controls is much safer in this stage, as it prevents you from stopping the spin, and subsequently reversing the direction of spin (see the Falling Leaf maneuver of which I have also been taught). During this stage one of 2 things can happen, usually if done correctly, the aircraft will enter a fully developed spin, but the aircraft can also enter a spiral dive, which has a totally different recovery technique.

 

Fully Developed Spin

 

The fully developed spin begins when the aircraft stabalises, the air speed will stabalise (stop increasing), and the controls will stay in the position they are in due to the forces on the control surfaces. This is the point in the video where I take my hands off the controls, and place them on top of the instrument panel. Why? 2 reasons, input through the stick will not have any effect on unspinning the aircraft (do not push forward on the controls, you are already flying towards the ground), and the second reason is that you could inadvertently put the aircraft into a flat spin, which is not what we want, and can be dangerous if you and the aircraft are not endorsed to do a flat spin. Once your hands are on the panel, the air speed stays the same, all controls stay where they are due to the airflow, time to enjoy the ride for a bit. Once you reach your recovery height, which for me was 1500' above my aerobatic recovery height of 3000' AGL, or 4500 AGL, initiate spin recovery, which is simply full opposite rudder to the direction you are spinning. Once the aircraft has stopped spinning, it is a normal nose low recovery situation, unless the engine has stopped.....

 

Engine Stops in a Spin

 

The engine in an aircraft with naturally aspirated engines (i.e. one that uses a carburetor to mix fuel and air) will usually stop in a fully developed spin, this will not happen to an engine using fuel injection. Why? Simple physics, during a fully developed spin you have positive G towards the side of the aircraft opposed to the spin direction. This is due to the centripetal force of the spin forcing the fuel to side of the carburetor, thus preventing fuel from entering the engine. The reason that the fuel pump is not used during spinning in the Alpha, is that it can cause excess fuel to enter the carburetor, which could then cause it to spill out of the carburetor due to the centripetal forces, onto hot parts of the engine, for example the exhaust and possibly cause a fire. To restart the engine, you can air start it by diving to about 120 knots (in the Alpha), and then putting the spinner on the horizon, and the engine will usually start itself, if not then you key start the engine, failing that you have a real life forced landing, and better hope that you selected a suitable field or landing area during your HASEL check. (This has happened before, but not to me).

 

So, do not try this unless you and the aircraft are endorsed.

 

Sally.

 

 

[pylon500]

I didn't know we were calling the Robin 2160's, an 'Alpha 160' now?

 

OK, I must admit to learning all my spinning in gliders, so stopping and/or starting engines was not a problem.

 

I guess using an aerobatic entry ensures entry in the chosen direction, unlike an Incipient entry (Glider talk), which in powered planes are just as likely to roll out and spin the other way!!

 

An incipient entry (Glider version), is where you are turning, and allow your speed to wash off until you stall.

 

Typically, a glider will roll into the turn and begin a stable spin within one turn, if held.

 

Powered aircraft, and most ultralights, tend more towards rolling out of a turn (about 70% out, 30% in) and spinning in the opposite direction.

 

As for the recovery technique, yes, it's one way, and as I suspected, in an aircraft with an all flying tail.

 

Aircraft with normal tailplanes will begin to recover as soon as you let go of the stick.

 

The Robin, with it's HUGE rudder, will stop it's yawing motion fairly quickly with rudder, but depending on elevator position (anything aft of, a bit forward of centre) can enter a spin in the other direction.

 

In a glider like a Blanik, once a spin has been stabilised and still holding back stick, use of opposite rudder will do nothing for at least two and a half turns (if at all!) before slowing it's yawing motion, it can then enter a spiral and build up speed VERY quickly.

 

Primarily, as mentioned early in Sally's post, detection and prevention (or at least instant action) is better than allowing a spin to develop.

 

G'Day Arthur,How's sunny Taree?

WET !

Arthur

 

 

[facthunter]

Perhaps I won't be supported here, but I wish all that had not been written. I mean no disrespect of the intentions of the posters, but really there is so much contentious stuff there that it's dangerous. I am inclined to point our some errors, but then I will be indulging myself in something I don't believe in.

 

Ie purporting to teach spin training on a forum.

 

Leave this to you and your instructor. All planes spin differently. Spinning might look like fun but it's a deadly serious undertaking, that needs evaluation and specific techniques applied. The posters above may argue they aren't attempting to teach spinning but some fool will go and try it, on the basis of stuff like that. Nev

 

 

[Owi]

Perhaps I won't be supported here, but I wish all that had not been written. I mean no disrespect of the intentions of the posters, but really there is so much contentious stuff there that it's dangerous. I am inclined to point our some errors, but then I will be indulging myself in something I don't believe in.Ie purporting to teach spin training on a forum.

Leave this to you and your instructor. All planes spin differently. Spinning might look like fun but it's a deadly serious undertaking, that needs evaluation and specific techniques applied. The posters above may argue they aren't attempting to teach spinning but some fool will go and try it, on the basis of stuff like that. Nev

Okay, I see what you're saying, mate. However, I've seen and read from plenty of sources how to do a handbrake turn in a car. Do you think I've tried it on a public road?

 

Each to their own.

 

 

[facthunter]

I have NO idea whether you would do it on a public road. (1 against then?) Nev

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Perhaps you could post your edited version for the safety of us fools?

 

 

[eightyknots]

Perhaps I won't be supported here, but I wish all that had not been written. I mean no disrespect of the intentions of the posters, but really there is so much contentious stuff there that it's dangerous. I am inclined to point our some errors, but then I will be indulging myself in something I don't believe in.Ie purporting to teach spin training on a forum.

Leave this to you and your instructor. All planes spin differently. Spinning might look like fun but it's a deadly serious undertaking, that needs evaluation and specific techniques applied. The posters above may argue they aren't attempting to teach spinning but some fool will go and try it, on the basis of stuff like that. Nev

Sorry Nev, I have to disagree with you here. I think this Forum is composed of literate, thinking adults. Sally has written in red capital letters "do not try this at home" and I truly believe that no Forumite will try this on the strength of one short video and some commentary. Forumites will only read this for interest and, if they feel inclined to do some spinning, will contact an appropriate instructor to learn/do this.