25nm without crosscountry........could this be increased safely?

[motzartmerv]

No worries. It is a bit strange how its structured. But have you tried to find a rule in the CAR's or CAO's lately?..lol..

 

 

[eightyknots]

If you take a nav course you will see the error of this statement. You don't fly on gps alone-the Americans can switch off their satellites, your gps can malfunction, and some other reasons pointed out by a CFI. You always know where you are on the map by dead reconing. Where do you learn this.......?

Or the North Koreans could jam the GPS frequencies with a high powered transmitter.

 

"North Korea has been looking for new and inventive ways to mess with South Korea. It seems that their missile launch fizzled a bit though, so those wacky folks from the North have bought a few GPS jamming trucks from Russia and are now blocking GPS signals around their city of Kaeson. While Kaeson is around 60 Km inside their borders, the jamming circle is around 100 Km, so it actually covers good parts of South Korea including the airports at Inchon and Gimpo. While no accidents have been caused as yet, it has caused quite some disruption and has made ocean going craft suffer as well due to their heavy reliance on GPS signals."

 

http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/05/10/019201/north-korea-jamming-gps-signals-in-south-korea

 

My daughter says... Daddy's got a big kite with a buzzy thing to blow it along....

You obviously have a very insightful daughter Mark .

 

 

[eightyknots]

....also, this remarkable flight -of 1,600 nautical miles over the ocean- appears to have been conducted entirely by relying on GPS for navigation:

 

http://www.mcp.com.au/sinus/newsletters/newsletter-36/newsletter-36.html

 

 

[turboplanner]

In GA it's more sensible, you are confined to the Training Area, which has known borders pointed out to you by your instructor during training, so you are familiar with your boundaries.

 

I'd suggest the reason for this boundary (RA or GA) is the same as being limited to the circuit area in the beginning - you learn a little at a time and as you become compentent, you move on to the next step.

 

The 25 Nm limit is necessary because you have not been trained in Navigation to that point, and desirable because you can carry out essential training like stalls, precautionary landings, forced landings, steep descending turns etc. without the added distraction of having to establish where you are.

 

Similarly, when you progress to navigation exercises, you can carry out this difficult phase of training without the distraction of not being up to speed in basic training - they are two very different phases.

 

There are places like the Latrobe Valley with mountains on one side and ocean on the other where eyeball navigation is a breeze and a student would never get lost, but as Mick pointed out above there are hundreds of thousands of square miles of Australia where you require navigation skills to survive.

 

Navigation is a subject best learnt in a night course with others present to ask questions you didn't think of and provide answers to all sorts of scenarios. It's also the subject which requires the most re-reading and re-training at regular intervals to keep up recency. Many people have become lost over the years by miscalculating compass track.

 

The threads we've had on this subject before were very telling, with people unaware of how to navigate with a map, admitting to gambling their lives on a Chinese GPS which they really couldn't work anyway, and assuming that because they could navigate visually in their local area, everywhere else would be the same.

 

 

[youngster]

100NM would allow a trip from Coffs Harbour to Armidale. That is a long trip for a low hours pilot, and I certainly would not feel comfortable doing that without Nav training. 25NM is an arbitrary number, but I think it is about right. Any less would make taking off for a joyflight pointless. Any more would be allowing you to fly cross-country without the necessary training.

 

 

[rdarby]

You can get lost within 25nm. I have been. It depends on terrain as TP said, and also on weather. If the weather changes and you can no longer see your way home, you can get mixed up. It stops being a case of "go to x and turn left" and more one of working out a heading and avoiding controlled airspace and not panicking. Navigation training taught me to think more than anything. There is a lot to the navigation endorsement, and it's well worth it. Ryan

 

 

[facthunter]

Apply the minimum VFR visability to navigating and see how you go. The weather can change suddenly. You can get misty rain or dust there could be times when you are 10 miles out and really can't see your destination, so you have to pick out "known" features,and fly a direction, to get back.

 

Put yourself in place of the rulemaker, what would YOU suggest. 25 MILES is probably right. Nev

 

 

[Mark11]

You obviously have a very insightful daughter Mark .

 

Yes, I thought she hit the nail on the head with that description!! They can really simplify things nicely...

 

 

[crashley]

the purpose of the 25 mile limit is to allow you to learn how to fly without having to worry about navigation weather etc not to allow you to go touring and sight seeing stay within your 25 mile limit you will understand why when you get your cross country endorsement

 

 

[Louis Moore]

I know of a few pilots who had the old restricted license and thought the same thing, say whats an extra 50 or 100nm, how bad can it get. Two of them ended up with PC9's of there wings after busting airspace, one ended up running out of fuel after hitting a head wind and getting lost and another lost his plane after crashing in a field because he got lost. I know 4 guys who thought that way and 100% ended up finding out just WHY there was (and is now for RAA) a cross country endorsement.

 

I know another 25nm seems innocent but the BIGGEST factor with stretching out that line is how much the chance of simply doing a 180 and hitting something that reminds you of where you took off from is reduced. Within that radius your chances of becoming navigationally disorientated are very slim, the more you extend the large that window becomes, tripplefold!

 

 

[Guest nunans]

There's nothing wrong with the original question after all I totally agree that one should know the reasons behind any rules or regs and decide for themselves rather than just follow the rules blindly because "them's the rules".

 

I can see why you're suggesting 50 or 100 miles after all the GPS will show us exactly where we are and how far away from the strip we've gone and which way home etc so there should be no reason to get "lost" in that regard.

 

The most important part of XC endorsement training should be about interpreting Naips briefings, planning so you are landed before end of daylight and knowing VFR minimas so that a pilot can decide weather to fly either yes or no 20 min before take off if the weather is going to be good enough or not.

 

If you're only planning to fly within 25 miles there's a good chance the weather is very similar at your destintion as it is at your takeoff point so the planning can be just common sense.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

So what are the rules regarding obtaining a wx forcast? How far can you fly before you need one? what are the rules regarding using GPS as primary navaid?

 

 

[Louis Moore]

There's nothing wrong with the original question after all I totally agree that one should know the reasons behind any rules or regs and decide for themselves rather than just follow the rules blindly because "them's the rules".I can see why you're suggesting 50 or 100 miles after all the GPS will show us exactly where we are and how far away from the strip we've gone and which way home etc so there should be no reason to get "lost" in that regard.

The most important part of XC endorsement training should be about interpreting Naips briefings, planning so you are landed before end of daylight and knowing VFR minimas so that a pilot can decide weather to fly either yes or no 20 min before take off if the weather is going to be good enough or not.

 

If you're only planning to fly within 25 miles there's a good chance the weather is very similar at your destintion as it is at your takeoff point so the planning can be just common sense.

I am inclined to disagree, there should be no reason to fly further than 25nm without the Nav endorsement. No excuses, no exemptions, if you want to fly further then do the training.

 

 

[Hongie]

i found out 1st hand why this is a seperate endorsement yesterday, on my 1st navex with my cfi.

 

coastal route from palmyra-homebush-avoid island-stlawrence-middlemount-capella-emerald-middlemount-nebo-palmyra.

 

The first half from palmyra to stlawrence was EASY! coastal navs is easy imho.. heaps of inlets that are easily matched from map to ground. peculiarly shaped islands, distinctive mountains etc. Once your inland, its a whole different ballgame! i'm glad i had a instructer with me. He let me make a few mistakes, and only intervened when i was in a bit of poo. It was then ground to map, and not so easy at all. lots of mines around this area which is a two edged sword.. what you may think is mine 'x' is actually mine 'y'. And not all are on the charts!

 

But the fact remains, i believe it is a good idea to make it a seperate endorsment.

 

my 2c

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Good onya Hongster..Sounds like a great day out...

 

 

[Guest nunans]

I am inclined to disagree, there should be no reason to fly further than 25nm without the Nav endorsement. No excuses, no exemptions, if you want to fly further then do the training.

I wasn't saying the 25nm is to small, Instead i was saying the reasons it's the right distance limit are weather, daylight, fuel etc, not much to do with getting lost.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with questioning the rules and learning all the reasons behind them. if the weather is rubbish then 10 nm might be too far to fly and equally on a stable morning with a big high overhead a low hour pilot with no XC cert might be able to safely fly 10onm away.

 

There are countless rules and regs in aviation and they're always changing. I think knowing why the rules are there is more important than just blindly following (that is if you can even remember them all in flight)

 

 

[Guest nunans]

So what are the rules regarding obtaining a wx forcast? How far can you fly before you need one? what are the rules regarding using GPS as primary navaid?

Good questions, as to the forcasts, since it's not covered in the RA pilot cert then i'm guessing it's 25nm.

 

For the GPS, casa says for day vfr the gps is "limited to supplimenting visual navigation techniques", for night vfr RNAVs the gps must be TSO's to include RAIM capability and the flight crew must hold GPS qualifications.

 

So I'm fairly sure it can't be used as a primary navaid especially by RA pilots.

 

 

[Hongie]

yeah mate not having a go at ya.. just giving you my opinion in the light of my somewhat (read; extremely) limited opinion

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Yeah , I did read that, except the note about consecutive flights, where on the website ops manual is that?

Point of departure means the original take-off point, origin of the flight. It doesn't have to make reference to potential loopholes- there is none, except for those wishing there were. As mentioned - do the xc endorsement and then you'll truly appreciate all the dangers and responsibilities out there- weather being foremost as 80 odd percent of us live within 100nm of the great weather divider.....!!

 

 

[M61A1]

I am inclined to disagree, there should be no reason to fly further than 25nm without the Nav endorsement. No excuses, no exemptions, if you want to fly further then do the training.

It wasn't really put up as a "question", it's more of an invitation for discussion. It was a topic of discussion between myself and a workmate with similar interests, so I thought I'd throw it into a wider forum and get some more opinions, pros and cons, etc. I'm not advocating for or against.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

It wasn't really put up as a "question", it's more of an invitation for discussion. It was a topic of discussion between myself and a workmate with similar interests, so I thought I'd throw it into a wider forum and get some more opinions, pros and cons, etc. I'm not advocating for or against.

Goodonya "61 for doing so, there's a good deal of experience on this forum, and definately no shortage of opinions so use what you can and then take that to the nav table when you're ready- you won't regret learning the skills and getting the keys to get out over the fence!

 

 

[rdarby]

I am pretty sure the distance you can go without needing a forecast is in the sylabus. I say that because I remember getting the question in the exam. I will go look up the answer tonight.

 

 

[M61A1]

Goodonya "61 for doing so, there's a good deal of experience on this forum, and definately no shortage of opinions so use what you can and then take that to the nav table when you're ready- you won't regret learning the skills and getting the keys to get out over the fence!

I have every intention of getting my cross country endorsment as soon as I get one of my a/c back in the air. I was just thinking about what made me ask the question initially....I was on a test flight at work running vibes on a helicopter. I looked around myself, at 4000 ft,west, I could see clear past Dalby out around Chinchilla, south, out past Pittsworth, North, to the Bunyas, & east, over the Great Divide to the other side of the Lockyer Valley. I began to wonder how the hell you get lost around here.( within 100NM give or take)

Yes, I've been out west, in the featureless terrain, I still figure with a compass, map & a watch, you'd probably do ok, the biggest hazard would have to be the weather. Maybe it's possible that because of my work I have a little more experience than a fledgling pilot, but I still dont have the stamp on my pilot certificate (yet).

 

 

[facthunter]

Sometimes you can see for ever, but try it when there has been burning off, and there is a lot of smoke around Pilots can get totally lost in training areas that are adjacent to the circuit area when the viz is reduced( but still legal) if there are no prominent feature to lead you to the strip, and you have been doing a period of airwork. C&D turns etc They don't even know which direction to look and could be flying away from it while they do. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

M61. What was the control step height where you were? In the vastness of what you could see? Where were the other steps? Class c and e ? Where are the restricted areas? Danger areas? Frequency boundaries? What atmospheric cruise level were you at? What one should you be at? What are the rpt climb and descent profiles into an out of the regionals in the area? Were there any notams current at any of the fields in your area? What about weather? Any current sigmets for turbulence? Any changes predicted? What was the wind strength and direction at your level? Was there a front due in the area soon? Or anytime today? If so was it a convergence front ?

 

There is so much more to navigating then knowing the lay of the land. All of the above is just SOME of what needs to be considered before you even get in the aeroPlane

 

Cheers