E F A T O reference thread: quality information only :-)

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

I would park the aircraft Dafydd.

See attached.

 

 

[Oscar]

Actually, that's a response worth serious consideration; it raises some quite deep questions about the level of 'risk taking' that ought to be - but it seems to me, too often is not - a factor in decision-making.

 

Most of us here, I imagine, saw that video of the NZ beach take-off that went awfully wrong, yet done by a pilot who was quite sufficiently competent to have landed the thing very well following an engine-out in a difficult situation. Obviously, I can't say with any certainty whether that pilot would have made a different decision about his proposed take-off had a suitable alternative method of moving the aircraft to a better location been readily available - but a Jabiru isn't a difficult aircraft to remove the wings and trailer out from a location IF the necessary skills to remove the wings and the necessary equipment to load a trailer/truck for said removal is reasonably available. Had that 'option' been on the cards, what resulted in a seriously damaged aircraft with a brand-new engine pretty much totalled might have been a case of no more than some inconvenience and maybe some hundreds of $$ of cost.

 

At the risk of being unfavorably compared with Mozartmerv's mother, I'd like to bring some glider-based observations into play here.

 

Gliders are designed, and just about all I know of, have a trailer for road transport. The 'easy' way back into the air from an outlanding is aero-tow. However, one can readily land a glider in a situation where an aero-tow retrieve is not possible. That imposes a load on the retrieve crew: driving to the landing site (which can be hundreds of k's away), loading the thing, towing it home. If you are the pilot, you can expect a hefty bar tab for the retrieve crew - and the thing is ready for flight again the next day.

 

I've been in the situation of having chosen a paddock from which aero-tow was impossible; the retrieve crew was mighty pissed, until they saw that the alternative I'd foregone was full of cattle that would have, in all probability, damaged the aircraft. My decision was accepted (with thanks, because this was a hire glider that would have been out of action for months had it been stomped on by inquisitive cattle). I've also been in the situation where a road-retrieve was preferable, but the tug pilot decided to try it - and the field was too damn short, he had to hop the Supercub over the fence and I had to hop the glider over it and get it back on the deck so he could rotate and drag us out. It worked on that occasion - but the tug pilot had no idea before he hit the throttle of whether I could handle the situation; it could have easily ended up with two aircraft seriously damaged and potential injuries.

 

What's the relevance here? Well, I think it is this: if you are in a situation where the evident risks of trying a take-off from a site that is palpably extremely high-risk and other options are available - why do it? If the reason you've ended up in that location is a suspect engine, exposing yourself and your aircraft to the risk is even more stupid. If you've landed in a site that is high-risk for take-off has been simply by choice - then surely your decision-making has been the primary cause of anything that follows and for the sake of the increased premiums that inevitably result from actuarial calculations of a high claim rate, your fellow aviators should beat you to death with a blunt club.

 

Conclusion? If the risk of taking off from a site is too high - DON'T DO IT. Seek an alternative means to retrieve the aircraft.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

There's a difference between a glider and a typical recreational aeroplane in regard to the airworthiness formalities involved in de-rigging and re-rigging; but maybe simplifying these would be a useful "no cost" way for RAA to reduce accident rates and thus insurance premiums. A good aircraft trailer takes a bit of thought, but it's not all that difficult. We've been considering the alternative merits of flying the motor-glider cross-country all over Australia, versus carting it on the trailer, to gliding sites we fancy visiting, and camping there for a week or so whilst we explore the flying within about 200 Km radius of the site. On the whole, the trailer wins, I think (it's designed to facilitate rigging and de-rigging). We'd probably choose to fly if we go to Tasmania. The availability of the trailer opens a complete set of alternative options.

 

I recall an incident where the Canberra GC Motorfalke suffered some propeller damage whilst flying from a site at the northern end of Lake George - and the club maintenance officer elected to saw the opposite tip off the propeller in order to fly the aircraft back to Lake George South, to collect & fit the spare propeller! Some people cannot think their way out of a paper bag! Having a suitable trailer available is cheap insurance, in my view.

 

 

[facthunter]

It would be a RARE situation that FORCES you to do a take off. The landing MUST be done but not the take off.. Nev

 

 

[rgmwa]

On the whole, the trailer wins, I think (it's designed to facilitate rigging and de-rigging). We'd probably choose to fly if we go to Tasmania.

Wow! You're going to glide it across Bass Strait? I'm impressed, Dafydd.

 

rgmwa

 

Edit:

 

Oh, yeah. I forgot. It has a motor in it. Well, that's alright then.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

So, having a trailer available to move your aeroplane from an unsuitable strip to a more suitable one to facilitate a lower risk takeoff is a realistic option?

 

I don't think I've ever heard if anybody de ringing an aircraft and trailer ing it out because of limited forced landing areas available. Could happen I Spose,;) shall we write that into the syllabus in the new ops manual?

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Wow! You're going to glide it across Bass Strait? I'm impressed, Dafydd. rgmwa

Edit:

 

Oh, yeah. I forgot. It has a motor in it. Well, that's alright then.

13,000 feet at the point of no return and it doesn't need the motor; can glide all the way, either way.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

So, having a trailer available to move your aeroplane from an unsuitable strip to a more suitable one to facilitate a lower risk takeoff is a realistic option?I don't think I've ever heard if anybody de ringing an aircraft and trailer ing it out because of limited forced landing areas available. Could happen I Spose,;) shall we write that into the syllabus in the new ops manual?

Happens all the time, in gliding. The landing area is seldom a worry; you don't have to choose it with an eye to the subsequent takeoff.

 

 

[Oscar]

So, having a trailer available to move your aeroplane from an unsuitable strip to a more suitable one to facilitate a lower risk takeoff is a realistic option?I don't think I've ever heard if anybody de ringing an aircraft and trailer ing it out because of limited forced landing areas available. Could happen I Spose,;) shall we write that into the syllabus in the new ops manual?

No, for power aircraft it obviously isn't (although I do have that option, having built one and used it for more than 2000k of movement of my own Jab.) - at the moment. However, where in any airmanship manual does it say: 'you got it here, you fly it out, sucker.'? Just because you may have been forced / made an inadvisable decision to end up at a particular location doesn't mean you have to perpetuate a dangerous situation.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea, if you land it in a sh!t paddock or a short beach then of course it becomes an option. Look me in the eye and tell me your going to trailer your jab OUT of an airfield because you dont like the over shoot options.. Fairy tales boys.

 

 

[Oscar]

I have a suitable trailer; I know how to rig and de-rig it. I have spent many hundreds of hours repairing my Jab. I have the mental capacity to calculate the cost of time and effort to retrieve the thing by road vs. paying for the most likely least-cost broken bit (prop, $1500). So don't apply your own thought processes and assume that they are mine, Merv.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yep..Your gunna trailer it out of an airfield oscar?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I call BS!!

 

 

[facthunter]

I think the fact it is an alternative possibility should be recognised and considered.. We all say we can replace a plane but not someones's life. As to whether an individual will fly over dangerous obstacles on initial climb in an unreliable aircraft. (Say on the first test flight) perhaps not. . Those who gamble assess the risks and should be prepared to lose. It's an individuals choice. IF you carry a passenger you involve someone else too. IF you have a proven fuel system and a bulletproof engine it's a lot different to trotting out something that hasn't run for a few years, and trusting your life to it. Nev

 

 

[SDQDI]

 

 

[facthunter]

I think we are on topic? Merv there are some places that might loosely be called an airfield that wouldn't be ideal or even suitable for a particular aeroplane to fly from on the day. It might be a one way strip with a downwind, the wrong direction. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Well, lets hope theres a trailer around hey?

 

 

[facthunter]

The trailer is not really the issue. If you land in Lake Eyre the plane might be there for ever to all intents and purposes. It may not be recoverable. You can often get a plane somewhere it can not get out of safely. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes. I get that Nev. How is this helping people understand and train for better EFATO outcomes though?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well, lets hope theres a trailer around hey?

This is what playing with UAVs does to your mind Motz.

 

How about you' re traveling and you book an aircraft hire at a strange place and when you get there you find out that around each end of the strip is a Forest of 600 mm diameter Mountain Ash about three metres apart.

 

 

[facthunter]

Just that you don't HAVE to DO it if you are not happy. It's another concept or one more piece to the total picture. People have asked me about training at certain places and I have advised against some because of the amount of built-up areas around the drome . Same as if the maintenance is not good, or the instruction is off etc. Nev

 

 

[metalman]

This is what playing with UAVs does to your mind Motz.How about you' re traveling and you book an aircraft hire at a strange place and when you get there you find out that around each end of the strip is a Forest of 600 mm diameter Mountain Ash about three metres apart.

Lol, so you're going to suggest to the owner " hey I have a trailer handy ,let's rip the wings off and take it up the road a bit,,,really hehehe:tongue in cheek:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Lol..How about worrying about the 10000 takeoffs your going to do from your home strip, and not the one in a million event where you may decide to use a trailer because youve pranged or been forced down on some one way goat track..

 

Trailering IMHO is not how to deal with an EFATO.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

How about you' re traveling and you book an aircraft hire at a strange place and when you get there you find out that around each end of the strip is a Forest of 600 mm diameter Mountain Ash about three metres apart.

How about...Go somewhere else? You dont have to pull the aeroplane apart.. And you reckon my brains gone soft..lol:roflmao:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Tell the CFI to hold your beer while you take to his aeroplane with a shifter and pair of pliers you happen to have...hahaha..

 

Made my day you have mate!!..