Viking Engines In Aus

[fly_tornado]

Who's bright idea was it too put the carbie on top of the muffler?

 

 

[jetjr]

Dont they both?

 

Main difference is exhaust silencer ,,,,,,,jab has one the Lyc doesnt

 

Also the lyc is much larger, usrely that would make pipework esier?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Dont they both?Main difference is exhaust silencer ,,,,,,,jab has one the Lyc doesnt

Also the lyc is much larger, usrely that would make pipework esier?

Pushrod tubes and the intake manifold heights. Note the intake tubes are laid over the cylinders.

 

Me, if I was Jab I would have gone for a single casting head for both cooling and spreading the through-bolt loads.

 

 

[nig71]

Back on the diesel subject again, according to this Honda's new 1.6 liter diesel engine is lightest in its class the 1.6 civic motor is substantially lighter than the 2.2 petrol. I know the Viking runs the 1.6 petrol so not a direct comparison.

 

Also looking at power graphs it's producing power and torque in that sweet 2700rpm range. So would be possible to put one in an aircraft without a reduction unit.

 

Also reading that modern diesels return fuel back off the common rail producing the effect of warming the fuel to reduce waxing issues. Considering that you are dicing carby heat you could reinstall a system where you heat the fuel rails with exhaust heat.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

the 1.6 civic motor is substantially lighter than the 2.2 petrol. I know the Viking runs the 1.6 petrol so not a direct comparison..

No and no.

 

There is no such thing as a lightweight diesel, and it is lighter than the 2.2 "diesel", not petrol, which means very little for aircraft use.

 

 

[nig71]

No and no.There is no such thing as a lightweight diesel, and it is lighter than the 2.2 "diesel", not petrol, which means very little for aircraft use.

Thank you; I stand corrected as to the comparison engine type; missed that

 

 

[eightyknots]

Back on the diesel subject again, according to this Honda's new 1.6 liter diesel engine is lightest in its class the 1.6 civic motor is substantially lighter than the 2.2 petrol. I know the Viking runs the 1.6 petrol so not a direct comparison.Also looking at power graphs it's producing power and torque in that sweet 2700rpm range. So would be possible to put one in an aircraft without a reduction unit.

 

Also reading that modern diesels return fuel back off the common rail producing the effect of warming the fuel to reduce waxing issues. Considering that you are dicing carby heat you could reinstall a system where you heat the fuel rails with exhaust heat.

Diesel engines by their nature, being a high compression engine with far greater forces involved, always need to built heavier so they do not explode under the considerably greater compression load. I am not sure whether there will ever be a true light weight diesel engine.

 

The other 'penalty' is the fuel weight. Diesel is about 40% heavier than avgas or mogas.

 

 

[nig71]

The specific gravity of diesel is mostly made up by how much less you need to carry to accomplish the same work. These 1.6 honda diesels claim 70 mpg .

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The specific gravity of diesel is mostly made up by how much less you need to carry to accomplish the same work.

Lets just offer a rough summary to that;

 

Take off weight;

 

500kgs + 100kgs petrol = 600kgs

 

550kgs + 50kgs diesel = 600kgs

 

Ok, same in our ideal world.

 

Landing weight empty of fuel;

 

500kgs for petrol plane

 

550kgs for diesel plane

 

Diesel is 10% heavier for landing.

 

From the moment you take off, the diesel is progressively performing poorer.

 

 

[Keenaviator]

What's the specific gravity of avtur? I believe diesel engines can run on this.

 

 

[nig71]

Avtur is .8, diesel is .82 to .95, premium 87ron is .72, avgas is .68 to .74.

 

Fuel planning for landing weights would maybe significant for circuit work with trainee pilots (I am one) but less so for general use where what is aboard is there for a planned journey.

 

Old pilot saying; the only time you have too much fuel on board is when you are on fire.

 

And three most useless things to a pilot, the runway behind you, the sky above and the fuel you left on the ground.

 

 

[hihosland]

I am no petroleum chemist

 

But my crude understanding is that from a kilo of avgas, premium, avtur, or diesel the energy available from each is not that different.

 

Ie if you measured the km per kg of burning those fuels in your car the results would be much closer than when comparing the km per liter

 

 

[facthunter]

The SG of a fuel gives a good indication of the energy. A diesel engine built to a certain standard (light high strength materials ) will always have more mass then an equally exotic petrol engine, as there are higher combustion and compression loads. When the moving parts are heavier there are increased problems ( Dynamic loads) with high revs which is one of the ways of getting high POWER.

 

Cycling high loads spell fatigue in metals eventually. Nev

 

 

[kasper]

With Rec flying its usually a crossover issue on weight not on operating cost - when does the extra weight of the base engine for diesel get offset by the lower fuel burn on a trip ...

 

Usually that is never workable on rec aircraft because we use - copared to General Aviation - super light weight petrol engines. On a single trip most equivalent power petrol/diesel engine end up around the 9-10 hours for parity ie you need to be flying for 11 hours before your takeoff weight for the same flight is lower on the diesel aircraft.

 

The main reason driving diesel is GA where not only are the petrol engines heavier (cross over is shorter flight) but aviation gasoline is becoming harder to find and is very expensive ... diesel running JetA or Avtur are simply more usable and cost less to run.

 

I'd love to fly a diesel and the three cly Smart diesel converted to aircraft use in Europe has attraction BUT a second hand R912 wins hands down on cost of acquisition and operation for me so my aircraft variously have old/new two strokes or old fourstrokes

 

 

[facthunter]

Diesels don't appear to be the success in aviation they were predicted to be. The "smart" engine is too expensive to reco. The idea is to scrap it and replace with another engine at that stage. Not having an ignition system is a help. Two strokes or wankels are the lightest weight for power delivered. (exc turbines but they USE FUEL) Nev

 

 

[nig71]

For my interest as a farmer diesel is far cheaper and available. Also more available in outback communities. Rather than the total energy equation. So my motives may be different to others.

 

 

[Nobody]

The diesels that do have promise for aviation use are 2 stroke. You trade off fuel efficiency but gain Power to Weight ratio. They need forced induction to run. Check out the wilksh automotive engine as an example that has been under development for a while. An rv-9 has flown with this engine.

 

 

[kasper]

The diesels that do have promise for aviation use are 2 stroke. You trade off fuel efficiency but gain Power to Weight ratio. They need forced induction to run. Check out the wilksh automotive engine as an example that has been under development for a while. An rv-9 has flown with this engine.

Or the Zoche - not flown but the 150hp has been run - watch and listen to the video on their site

zoche aero-diesels homepage

 

Probably never see the light of day though and will cost full GA rates to buy as they are going at the 150-300HP range really

 

 

[facthunter]

Ordinary (non winter) diesel has too much wax in it for aircraft that operate in higher latitudes and at high altitudes. Minus about 3 degrees is likely to cause trouble. Nev

 

 

[Downunder]

Ordinary (non winter) diesel has too much wax in it for aircraft that operate in higher latitudes and at high altitudes. Minus about 3 degrees is likely to cause trouble. Nev

Yes, there was a previous thread about diesel (automotive) FUEL and how unsuitable it is for aviation.

 

Apparently the automotive blends are constantly changed through out the year due to average temps changing (winter, summer, etc)

 

This is to remain between the wax and vapour points I think.

 

This means it would be unsuitable for the large temp changes in aircraft.

 

When people talk aviation diesel engines, they are talking about the operational concept I think, not the fuel in particular.

 

 

[diesel]

Diesel is all that I fly now.

 

Slightly heavier engine vs heaps of bang stuff.

 

Long engine life and NZ$12 vs $85 per 100 miles flown.

 

Automotive diesels do fly in micros.

 

Euro diesels have a small heat exchanger for fuel under the fuel filter. Also fuel pumped around the return keeps things warm.

 

You make problems where there are none.

 

Crappy fuel can be filtered and should be for any engine.

 

Chas

 

 

[Camel]

Diesel is all that I fly now.Slightly heavier engine vs heaps of bang stuff.

Long engine life and NZ$12 vs $85 per 100 miles flown.

 

Automotive diesels do fly in micros.

 

Euro diesels have a small heat exchanger for fuel under the fuel filter. Also fuel pumped around the return keeps things warm.

 

You make problems where there are none.

 

Crappy fuel can be filtered and should be for any engine.

 

Chas

Very interested in your diesel aircraft, can you please tell me more ?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Yes Chas, may we be aware of which engine you have chosen please?

 

 

[diesel]

Yes Chas, may we be aware of which engine you have chosen please?

My project was started a number of years ago as I had to build an aircraft around my engine.

 

Its based on a Jodel. All the jodels mixed into one multi scale. It was decided to use aerodynamics instead of brute power.

 

My engine is an old mechanical Peugeot xud.

 

1.9 litres of turbo diesel swings a prop better than a C 0200 of 3.3 litres on less than half the fuel.

 

Yes it was a big learning curve. Petrol head advise does not work but in the end very simple and reliable.

 

Have a look on youtube under diesel Jodel for some pics about the first three hours.

 

Learned a lot since then too but well worth the effort.

 

Several other diesel micros on the net as well now.

 

Pika Hamilton VW 180hp 172.

 

Serge Pennec Gazaile.

 

Conquest in Brazil

 

Ramphos trike.

 

Years ago Serge put a Peugeot diesel into a Rans.

 

Delvion.

 

Please dont think of direct drive or no full weight flywheel. Dont try to run at max torque either.

 

Chas

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Please dont think of direct drive or no full weight flywheel. Dont try to run at max torque either.

Chas

Thanks for your reply Chas, appreciated.

 

Yup, flywheel weight is something people shouldn't muck around with on an auto conversion (petrol can trim a little off), especially diesel. The big fan is not a suitable substitute for a flywheel. I grimace every time I see an auto driveplate only aero engine come to a sudden stop.

 

Not sure what you're saying with the direct drive and not at max torque comments though?