Bad radio

[Student Pilot]

Went for a bit of a run at the weekend to the Brissy area and back down the coast. On the way up I was listening to 126-7, it was constant crap. There was a flyin at Inglewood or somewhere and all the boys were using 126-7 for babble.

 

If you want a yarn go to numbers not CTAF or area. When on CTAF just give an inbound and joining the circuit unless conflicting traffic. There's no need to give 7 calls in the circuit even if there is 12 Aircraft in the area. The ultralight side is getting a bad name for radio work and I can see why.

 

Keep calls short and concise, you don't have to have all the bull**** just as long as people know where you are and what your doing. Also there's no need for long idents, just basic, I heard a few calls like............................ "All stations in the XXX area, Blue, white and red Moviestar 3798 is 15.63 nautical miles bearing 192 from XXX ay 3453 feet inbound and anticipating joining a crosswind for runway XX, all stations in the XXX area"

 

I may be wrong but I think you should just call "Ultralight XXX" instead of Aircraft type. If working with GA traffic most don't know the difference between a Thruster and a Sportstar so why complicate things?

 

Another whinge is radio quaility, some of the calls were wasted space, couldn't understand any of it. All we got was lots of wind noise broken by babble. If your going to go into areas with other Aircraft working then you should have a decent radio.

 

Having said all that there were folks giving good calls, it's just the bad ones were overpowering everything. We have to do something about it if we don't want more restrictions put on lighter Aircraft access to most areas.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Coming back from Narromine at Easter all the way down through NSW there were pilots who'd left Narromine before me using 126.7 as a chat line. Various parties miked in and told them to stop and they just ignored it. Crap like "Aircraft 6789 where are you mate? I'm at 3,000 feet 19.7359 nm from nowhere with a 3.75 knot tailwind. What have you got?" Then his mate would give him the whole disaster in reply. 10 minutes later they'd do it all again. Just rubbish.

 

126.7 is busy enough in that area with most of the strips on that for their CTAF. The last thing you need is someone using it as a chat line. Isn't 123.45 for inter-aircraft comms?

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[PaulN]

If anyone reading the above, and justifiable, reports are sometimes guilty of this radio abuse, think on this too. Often, given the right conditions, calls on the 126.7 channel can be heard well away from where you are. For example, while at 4400ft in circuit over Adaminaby (in the mountains) yesterday I was getting chatter from Moruya (66nm) and Tumut (52nm). Other times I've heard calls from as far afield as Young and Parkes.

 

The obvious result of this is that on busy days 126.7 can be really busy making it sometimes difficult to listen out for calls applicable to your specific area. This is a safety issue. Please use your radio wisely.

 

 

Paul

 

 

[Guest Crash Lander]

Whilst doing my area solo 2 weeks ago, there were 2 a/c who made a legit call, then added details about a BBQ and what they were taking, and what time to get there etc. Convo went on for maybe a minute or 2, but that's precious time if you have an emergency.

 

As soon as they had finished, another a/c came on with a legit call, so he was obviously waiting for thgem to finish.

 

 

[Guest Sabre]

I'll be cheeky here but some ultralight pilots don't know the difference between a Piper and a Mooney.....but as a student I think I read that CASA regs say aircraft type required????

 

 

[Guest J430]

Have to agree, I went to IGLW yesterday and it was exactly that at times, poor radio ettiquette and some were so poor quality it was not funny.

 

Lucky I climbed out and went to BNE CEN as quick as I could!

 

Seriously, my GA and RAA folk from up here make an effort to ensure good radio comms all the time, by checking each others comms on our Saturday flights, just by listenening, not some all in "radio check", and if someone has a scratchy radio, we get onto it straight away.

 

Folk in Drifters and similar open types should invest in decent gear as the wind noise and a mic too far from the mouth makes the radio call pointless.

 

Few things to consider, look after your mates as you can not hear your own transissions.

 

Also, before htting the PTT, think and reherse you minimum blab call before you actually make it. Think it through first. It works for me.;)

 

J:)

 

 

[Guest brentc]

So think BEFORE you speak. That's an interesting concept.

 

CRASH Lander. If you need to speak, press your Mic and start talking. Sometimes on stations particularly 126.7 you'll pick up to and over 100 miles away. Sometimes you pretty much have to just transmit over the other station, unless you know for sure that they are nearby.

 

Pretty much as airfields get busier that are on the shared frequencies such as 126.7 like Tyabb was, they eventually with some campaigning to Airservices will get their own CTAF frequency and many of these problems go away.

 

It's bad enough at Tooradin on 124.2 as this frequency is shared by Albury Tower, Flinders Island CTAF, Melton CTAF and Hamilton CTAF so it can get very busy. I feel sorry for those on 126.7, but the trouble is that there just isn't enough frequencies from what I've heard which is why they have intruduced 25 khz frequency steps.

 

120.85 and 123.45 can be used as they are designated for this purpose.

 

From experience, once a Mayday call starts to come through everyone goes strangely silent, to the point that you wonder if your radio is even working any more! That's one of the reaons you should say it 3 times over, to make sure you're heard over any other radio traffic.

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Hear hear. That's what these forums are for. Bugger ya! If you want to chat go to 123.450 and don't talk about "Hey buddy, I'm 5 miles out I can't see ya. Mate, ya think me paint looks ok against the blue sky"? I have heard it before and am sick of it. I know we have been trying to make radio calls and can't due to chatter and people talking too slow. Nothing against 80 year old pilots but radio calls just take way tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong and we could be on finals by then! Keep it concise and don't talk garbage. If we have a mayday, we might not have time to change freq's before we go down. One of the worst offenders is a strip North of Sydney (you will know it Dave for obvious reasons). In saying that, you hear GA a/c on Sydney Radar freq doing things you would never imagine.And people say recreational aircraft are bad!

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Was driving past Moorabbin this morning with handheld on.

 

Heard tower give a Chieftain cleared for take-off call, closely followed by, 'cancel that take-off some d*ck head is on the runway!' (There were 8 hot-air baloons landing at the time and people were everywhere)

 

Then someone gets on and goes (this is hard to type) 'deeeeeerrrmmmmummmerrr errrr derr.'

 

To which the tower replied with a chuckle.

 

I was once at an airfield where CASA had been ramp-checking aircraft. As they were taxiing out to take off, someone was quietly saying in their radio, 'you b*stards, you f'b*stards, etc, etc, you pr*cks' The CASA employee was then heard saying, 'who is that? who's there? identify yourself, who is it? don't make me come back!' I was moderately amused at the time to say the least!

 

 

[Guest bateo]

I agree with stopping the general CWA chatter on 126.7, but coming back to the original topic, I think sometimes with RA-Aus (depending on traffic/location) they need to say more than the one call in the circuit area. To See and Be Seen! We have to keep in mind that, some of us GA pilots do not know what a Thruster/X-air is, and does not have the slightest clue that it cruises at 55 or 150 knots! They of course, take longer in the circuit area..

 

My point being.. An X-air on a slightly wider circuit takes twice as long as a Cessna/cherokee.. How is a GA pilot meant to know this? We are required as the pilots of these machines to inform them of this..

 

I know I use on slight traffic in the Tecnam.. Max 2. calls in circuit. I have become stuck in a situation where in the X-air twice (close calls) where a fast VH aircraft had joined downwind thinking I had cleared and I am still on Base below them.. I do now call max 4 calls in the X-air because of this, UNLESS they state whether they have visual!

 

We do have to remember, it maybe a pain in the butt listening to countless calls in Circuit, BUT thats what we have a radio for.. To inform our location and to be seen!! I know it does give some ultralights a bad name, but so does seeing near collisions!!

 

On a bit of a humerous note.. Coming into Narromine this yr on the Thursday.. I was taxiing for a park and I heard a bloke say '' The .......... pilot on final on 04 If I were you, I'd get the ........ out of the way!'' I thought this was hilarious, as EVERYONE was using 22 on the day.. and this bloke thought he'd land on a tail wind, in front of 1 aircraft on final, base and 2 on downwind!!

 

 

[Guest brentc]

On Sunday at around 10am (Easter weekend) an aircraft attempted an intersection departure on 11 at Narromine whilst an aircraft had already taken off from the threshold of the same runway. The assistant ops manager was heard to use an obscenity on the radio to alert the wrong do'er. He was not impressed and not many people were that saw it happen.

 

 

[Guest danda]

I ask the question does it matter if a G/A pilot knows what a thruster or a sport star is if an aircraft calls aren't we for safety sake obliged to keep an eye out? there are many aircraft I wouldn't have a clue as to what it was however if it calls I keep watch which is why all the unnecessary babble of the radio must stop.

 

Dob

 

 

[Ultralights]

The Cessnock area can get like that as well, with Maitland and Warnervale close by and on the same 126.7, its especially confusing with maitland being just 5 Nm away!

 

another little thing, is if you have a ICOM handheld radio, most have a switch to change the output level, if your in a congested radio area, how about using the lower output setting so your transmission doesn't carry for 100 Miles? or overpower someone at a different airfield? just a though (dont know if it actually works like that)

 

 

[Ross]

Procedures at non towered

 

Note there are two scans to look at here.

 

[ATTACH]1989[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]1990[/ATTACH]

 

Comments on this small sheet which I thought all pilots would have received.

 

Regards

 

 

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

The Cessnock area can get like that as well, with Maitland and Warnervale close by and on the same 126.7, its especially confusing with maitland being just 5 Nm away! another little thing, is if you have a ICOM handheld radio, most have a switch to change the output level, if your in a congested radio area, how about using the lower output setting so your transmission doesn't carry for 100 Miles? or overpower someone at a different airfield? just a though (dont know if it actually works like that)

It's a good idea this about low power if you have it. However it may not make much difference. I recall being in Banks Strait near Flinders Island one night in a SE gale (in a boat). I was talking to the operator at Tamar Sea Rescue - he's Welsh. He said "you seem terrible quiet tonight boyo". It was only later that we noticed that the low power button had been pushed on the ICOM VHF. It still pumped out at least 30nm.

 

As someone else said on this thread VHF can travel surprisingly long distances. I worked that same operator from Williamstown in Melbourne one day - at high power. That must be 100nm and the aerial is only 45 feet above sea level. An unusual but not unique event.

 

As for circuit calls I always use 3 - downwind, base, final - but they are brisk. I also make a joining call if I am entering rather than doing circuits - again brisk.

 

I hear what SP says about chatter but in a busy circuit I also find that I develop a really good situational awareness from hearing those calls. Whish brings me on to my other gripe: pilots who make calls and they really are not where they say they are; they've either gone half way to New York before turning final or they've wandered halfway to Perth on their downwind. When I'm in the circuit I "know" where to look on the basis of either where the aircraft says it is or from my situational "picture". There's a lot of variation in circuits - we might have slow aircraft at 500' and in tight and faster aircraft at 100' and wider - that's fine.

 

My point is that it's a circuit not a sightseeing tour. If you are consistent and predictable with your circuits then other people know where you are and won't be taken by surprise.

 

/end rant/

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Student Pilot]

The seven or so calls on the sheet are only recommended, I'm sure there are only 3 that are manditory. Inbound and joining circuit and taxying when about to enter and take off. If there is conflicting traffic then advise your position otherwise shut up. Look out, it's the only thing you can actually trust, even with the radio people sometimes aren't where they say they are. Some of the Airline blokes call downwind when their still 10 miles out. I have heard people making seven calls from inbound to clear without any Aircraft in the area.

 

I used to work at Deni in the early eighties Mike and we could hear the ferry radios there.

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

I think sometimes with RA-Aus (depending on traffic/location) they need to say more than the one call in the circuit area.

Excellent comment Sam. I could not agree more. Excellent print-out Ross. One that more pilots should read, ie, pilots that make no calls at all in circuit etc. Student pilot, I have to disagree with what you say (the joy of forums) ;) as at airstrips such as ours on the weekend the circuit can be very very busy. I feel if those 'recommended' calls are not made it becomes dangerous. Ofcourse it depends on the field. Also in saying that, I try to make the calls clear and concise and not drag calls on and on so nobody else can get a word in.That's a pet hate.As for the calling 10miles out on downwind, I know what you mean.I've heard/seen that.Another thing that irratates me is when GA aircraft overfly our strip at our circuit height, opposite direction and are on the wrong freq.If they have a decent GPS and a map they should know we are there.

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Not only that but they should have checked their ERSA as well.

 

Something to do with what the instructor teaches.. PLANNING.

 

Plan the flight, and fly the plan.

 

Ben

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Darren, if there are five Aircraft in the circuit and you all give downwind calls that should be enough.

 

A big problem is non standard circuits, everyone should be visible and close enough as not to take too long to fly a circuit. I think in slower Aircraft only about 1 K out if flying a 500 feet circuit.

 

Maybe if one's flying at 160 knots on downwind and another doing 65 might take some keeping up with but with similar performing Aircraft it should be a case of following round and eyes out. You will get used to it, another thing that helps is when your doing downwind or joining the circuit call a quick "For circuits" or "Full stop" lets people know to allow for a backtrack or turn off.

 

SP

 

 

[Admin]

If I know that there is a GA up my tail I will always add my approach speed in my radio call turning final

 

 

[Yenn]

The comment about GA planes overflying at circuit height is a good one, but if the strip is not in ERSA or on the WAC chart how is a pilot to know about it.

 

The legal minimum height to fly is 500' above GL so a plane can be traveling legally beneath me as I come in on finals. Hopefully he will see me as I cannot see beneath me. He should be keeping out a good watch being so low but we cannot prevent him flying there.

 

There is also a requirement for ultralights with a max speed of 55kts to give way to all aircraft including those conducting a straight in approach. A bit hard but it is in the rules.

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

I guess at the end of the day we all have our own ways of making radio calls.As mentioned before, I personally think there should be one at every stage of the circuit (providing it's clear and concise). That way everyone (if they are listening) know at every point where other aircraft are. Our particular field is marked so I don't know why we get some GA on our circuit height cutting over unannounced. I guess it will always happen. On a similar note, Sydney Radar is currently trying to raise an a/c in Richmond Controlled Airspace that has almost wiped out another a/c and cannot.For starters this pilot is flying in Controlled Airspace and does not have the radio on the right freq!

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

.... a plane can be traveling legally beneath me as I come in on finals. Hopefully he will see me as I cannot see beneath me. He should be keeping out a good watch .....

If the lower a/c is a high-wing and the other a low-wing, then there is a possibility for disaster.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

There is also a requirement for ultralights with a max speed of 55kts to give way to all aircraft including those conducting a straight in approach. A bit hard but it is in the rules.

A common belief but WRONG ! When the NAS2c changes were originally published there was a lot of feedback to CASA on this. They subsequently promolugated supplementary material which clarified the situation as follows ...

 

" The new procedures for operations at non-towered aerodromes are not changing the current regulations with regard Rules of the Air and Right of Way.

 

The current priorities that ultralights and all other aircraft have when in the circuit remain unchanged and aircraft on straight in approaches are still required to give way to aircraft already established in the circuit. Ultralights with a maximum speed of 55KTS are those ultralights that are not capable of more than 55KTS calibrated airspeed at full power in level flight. Ultralights in the <55KT circuit speed category are generally small and difficult to see. However, they are generally highly manoeuvrable and as such in the best position to prevent a conflict arising in the circuit by giving way. It does not mean that an ultralight with <55KT circuit speed has any less right to use the airspace or the runway than any other aircraft, and it does not mean that these aircraft have a lower priority for runway use at an aerodrome."

 

John

 

 

[Student Pilot]

If the lower a/c is a high-wing and the other a low-wing, then there is a possibility for disaster.

There is always possibility for disaster.

 

One thing we all need to keep in mind that it's not manditory to carry radios, most do and use them but you don't have to. You can legally overfly and land at any CTAF without any radio. The only thing we can do in that case is look out and don't rely on radios. There are all sorts of possiblity's, anything from wrong frequency, radio turned down, headsets unplugged. All these things can and do happen, all the time.

 

By all means use your radio but don't rely on them.