Public Liability

[skippydiesel]

Ye Gads what is it with the Australian obsession with blaming others for the choices we (adults) make of our own free will, that sometimes put us in harms way.

 

Yes I understand that we have another cultural/legal cock up - no national fund, that looks after people temporarily/permanently incapacitated. In stead we pay for the luxury lifestyles of legal parasites, to argue for injury payouts, many of which are clearly vexatious.

 

A broken system that benefits the few.

[turboplanner]

Ye Gads what is it with the Australian obsession with blaming others for the choices we (adults) make of our own free will, that sometimes put us in harms way.

Yes I understand that we have another cultural/legal **** up - no national fund, that looks after people temporarily/permanently incapacitated. In stead we pay for the luxury lifestyles of legal parasites, to argue for injury payouts, many of which are clearly vexatious.

A broken system that benefits the few.

This story isn't about the civil process though where the individuals who are negligent pay for their negligence.

This is about Culpable Negligence where a person is punished by a Court for doing something they knew was wrong.

[turboplanner]

The first Covid-19 Public Liability lawsuit has occurred with lightning speed; this story covers the initial details for those who want to follow the case and learn from it.

We can't discuss this specific case now, but remember the plaintiffs have to prove that a duty of care was owed to the patient for a reasonable forseeable risk and that duty of care had to have been breached for the lawsuit to be successful.

Victoria's death toll over the past few weeks has been primarily from people who were infected in Aged Care facilities, so the claims are not likely to be in the region of a 20 year old made a quadriplegic in an accident where the eventual payout might be over $11 million. Most of these people were approaching the end of their lives, but all were dearly loved by someone, and none of them got a normal funeral with all their friends present, so we are about see over the next few years how Australians value their parents and grandparents.

WQ10152.pdf

[Bruce Tuncks]

If you look at that hotel quarantine story, it seems clear to me that there was a duty of care and it was breached and the danger was very apparent to all from the beginning.

[Downunder]

The mum was 92....... and the son is suing for HIS stress and anxiety.....ffs....

[turboplanner]

The mum was 92....... and the son is suing for HIS stress and anxiety.....ffs....

Check the law.

[skippydiesel]

Over many many years now, there has been a steady running down of the public service and the substitution of permanent employee with contract workers.

As I understand it, this is part of what we have come to know as the "market economy".

The basis of the market economy is (public) demand will dictate policy & direction because this is what people will pay for. The problem with this is it is a bit like an automatic transmission in that it reacts to historic inputs but has no way of seeing the hill (up/down) ahead to start to change gears. so as to be well configured for the challenge to come. Our public service now has a long lag/response time to novel situations, applying inappropriate responses to the challenge of the day.

Perhaps CV-19 will be a wake up call to western governments that , the basis of many philosophy's/systems may be sound but the extreme application (to all situations) is rarely so ie common sense (a rare commodity amongst our leaders) should prevail.

[turboplanner]

Over many many years now, there has been a steady running down of the public service and the substitution of permanent employee with contract workers.

As I understand it, this is part of what we have come to know as the "market economy".

The basis of the market economy is (public) demand will dictate policy & direction because this is what people will pay for. The problem with this is it is a bit like an automatic transmission in that it reacts to historic inputs but has no way of seeing the hill (up/down) ahead to start to change gears. so as to be well configured for the challenge to come. Our public service now has a long lag/response time to novel situations, applying inappropriate responses to the challenge of the day.

Perhaps CV-19 will be a wake up call to western governments that , the basis of many philosophy's/systems may be sound but the extreme application (to all situations) is rarely so ie common sense (a rare commodity amongst our leaders) should prevail.

The governments saw that in the 1980s and withdrew from many activities where they knew they were sitting ducks and could never keep up with the fast moving private sector.

One very interesting byproduct was that the private companies themselves were slower as corporate bodies than many people think, so there are some blurry corners.

When it became obvious that Covid-19 was raging through the common denominator or aged care homes, one of the owners very publicly castigated the Federal government for not being up to speed with regulations, not realising the prescriptive era had finished 30 years before and the flames might be blowing in his direction soon.

[marshallarts]

ie common sense (a rare commodity amongst our leaders) should prevail.

 

Very glad you qualified that by mentioning its rarity! We haven't had common sense almost ANYWHERE for decades, as far as I can see. And that applies to both governments and private organisations. Seems to me as soon as ANY organisation gets beyond a certain size, common sense evaporates. I don't know what that threshold size is, but anything that has a department called "human resources" makes me very suspicious.

[facthunter]

Depends where you put the effect of PROFIT. It's what shareholders demand. often above environmental and worker welfare till they are FORCED to (if ever) CEO's who don't deliver the $$$'s get replaced . For a while now there have been activities carried out in a way as to be described as"ETHICAL" investments and corporations are being asked by shareholders about risk exposure NOT declared in the annual reports. It's called responsibility and not conceiling facts and LIABILITIES affecting the operation of the company longer term. Often these improvements are "reactive " rather than responsibly anticipated. You can get a race to the bottom in cost cutting say wages stripping, repairs and development plant modernisation & research, diversification, consolidation etc Nev

[SSCBD]

Generally the system is corrupt.

Government as in all of them lie or wont answer question.

You never hear of a dept head being sacked. You almost never hear of a MP who got caught fudging the system being booted out or resigning.

(should be held to a higher standard if the are in politics)

Any problem it seems always goes along the line of - we will get a review done - 12 months later what happens?.

 

Sorry call me cynical but would you hand your wallet over to the government without being forced . another fresh point is - Any government forms for example with the drought or the fires we had needed basically paperwork that people lost or accountants had to complete.

So

Its never the ministers fault - so whos fault is it?.

The dept heads that run the country are greatly overpaid with no oversight and need to be replaced (no value for money spent) by say three heads each responsible for a section of the portfolio at a much lower salary. Also they need to be replaced every four years.

[turboplanner]

Depends where you put the effect of PROFIT. It's what shareholders demand. often above environmental and worker welfare till they are FORCED to (if ever) CEO's who don't deliver the $$$'s get replaced . For a while now there have been activities carried out in a way as to be described as"ETHICAL" investments and corporations are being asked by shareholders about risk exposure NOT declared in the annual reports. It's called responsibility and not conceiling facts and LIABILITIES affecting the operation of the company longer term. Often these improvements are "reactive " rather than responsibly anticipated. You can get a race to the bottom in cost cutting say wages stripping, repairs and development plant modernisation & research, diversification, consolidation etc Nev

In some ways you might say that's what's happened with Aged Care Facilities, with medical staff able to get through all their daily work in a couple of hours, so only paid for a couple of hours so go to casual basis at four locations and take on four casual jobs to make an 8 hour day, but I bet we find that wasn't what killed the people in itself because even with that working model you could prevent cross-contamination.

[marshallarts]

The dept heads that run the country are greatly overpaid

 

I've thought this for a long time. And CEOs of local governments are obscenely overpaid as well. But it isn't only the public sector. We sometimes see CEOs of companies in the private sector get forced out of their job because something went badly wrong. This is them supposedly "taking responsibility" for it. BUT - often they walk away with a huge payout - how is that "taking responsibility"? And quite often they move almost seamlessly into some other highly-paid position. It's all a very cosy club up in that rarefied atmosphere.

[facthunter]

4 Ministers and a House leader got caught out in SA recently. They get to lose their portfolios Caught out by an outside investigation. Federal ICAC NOW. Be on the alert or it keeps happening. T'was ever thus, down through history. Greed and a Society based on conspicuous wealth as a measure of success. Nev

[turboplanner]

I've thought this for a long time. And CEOs of local governments are obscenely overpaid as well. But it isn't only the public sector. We sometimes see CEOs of companies in the private sector get forced out of their job because something went badly wrong. This is them supposedly "taking responsibility" for it. BUT - often they walk away with a huge payout - how is that "taking responsibility"? And quite often they move almost seamlessly into some other highly-paid position. It's all a very cosy club up in that rarefied atmosphere.

Jeff Kennett introduced upmarket CEOs into Councils to stop some of the hopeless and incompetent spending, because he believed business people could do it better.

I'd be interested to see a detailed Comparison analysis with the Councils of today because even with the massive amalgamations at that time the rates have never stopped heading for the sky and less of the basics gets done (roads, garbage, planning)

One council tried to introduce a Rule to provide less communication to the public and make more decisions behind closed doors. I got involved and found that two streams of management are creeping in to some Councils, 1. Councillor decisions - the traditional way a Council approves things and 2. Executive decisions where, a bit like the invisible suit story, everyone knows that the council has to make some decisions in a hurry and those are made by the CEO, hence less need for consulations and open council debates. The rule was thrown out by a lot of ratepayers who normally remain quiet and there will be more scrutiny of the Council in the future.

[skippydiesel]

The governments saw that in the 1980s and withdrew from many activities where they knew they were sitting ducks and could never keep up with the fast moving private sector.

One very interesting byproduct was that the private companies themselves were slower as corporate bodies than many people think, so there are some blurry corners.

When it became obvious that Covid-19 was raging through the common denominator or aged care homes, one of the owners very publicly castigated the Federal government for not being up to speed with regulations, not realising the prescriptive era had finished 30 years before and the flames might be blowing in his direction soon.

 

Whaaaat ? Sorry Turboplanner but do you honestly believe that organisations like CSIRO (the envy of the reserch world) somehow were incapable of "keeping up" ????

Properly funded & directed Gov institutions can be as fleet of foot and agile as any profit making organisation, probably more so - the bottom line/shareholders not being such a consideration.

From my perspective we have lost the plot when it comes to long term research, planning & investment - an area traditionally dominated by Government bodies that planned for decades to come rather than the market of the next 5 years.

I would not for a moment want to defend the forest of dead wood that Government (& private sector) bureaucracies are prone to accumulate but successive Au Governments have"thrown the baby out with the bath water".

Our leaders have pretty much screwed the technological lead this country had. We have undermined our reserch & development bodies - Uni's a case in point - now whoring their credibility to anyone who will pay.

Markets & profitability do matter but these short term objectives should not put at risk the national (individual and populations as a whole) well-being.

[turboplanner]

Whaaaat ? Sorry Turboplanner but do you honestly believe that organisations like CSIRO (the envy of the reserch world) somehow were incapable of "keeping up" ????

Well it might surprise you if I said "Yes" to that. I've had personal experience in business with two CSIRO people who let their later employers down badly (one who used to advise US Presidents), but we were not talking about business enterprise in general, we were talking about public liability which entails risk management.

The Government bodies were outpaced in trying to keep private companies safe in an environment where, if something went wrong, the government had licenced the activity or even visited the factory and signed documentation declaring the activity safe or the machinery safe. I even saw this happening with Department of Civil Aviation which controlled the safety and construction of airport Fire Crash Tenders. The Inspector would show up as each stage was completed, put his grey coat on, get out his instruments, and then be taken on a long lunch. He happened to be up to the task in this dance, and catch the people out every time, but if a mistake did slip through, it was DCA who paid the bill to fix it, or paid compensation to any victims, even though DCA hadn't made the mistake.

What the governments did was offload the risk by requiring private activities to manage their own risks; in other words take responsibility for their own actions.

Governments still retain risk in some areas like the automotive industry, but even there risks have been transferred. e.g. where once a new car was checked out and registered by police, these days each dealership registers their own new cars, so they are responsible for any mistakes.

[skippydiesel]

There is no doubt that the private sector can do some things better than Government. Business is about profit, generally in the short to medium term. It all about exploitation( not a dirty word when kept in context & subject to good Gov oversight)) - what concerns me is (no priority suggested):

The loss of public assets and the amenity that goes with it.

The commercialisation of the above and the manipulation/force of the public to use the same (very dubious ethics)

The commercialisation of all facets of health, particularly for the vulnerable.

The commercialisation of education (all levels) and its implications for a future Australia.

The commercialisation of the law and its impact on the bulk of the Au population (you wont know about it until you have been brought to your financial knees).

The commercialisation of safety where money making enforcement takes priority over less lucrative/possibly costly but ultimately more effective enforcement.

The commercialisation of Gov functions where artificial barriers/systems are implemented so as to maximise profit.

The loss of potential/actual synergy between functions/systems in the quest for profit.

The loss of Gov assets, particularly trained people, that can be relied apron to respond appropriately to emergency situations.

The protection, by Gov, of many very dubious, financially lucrative systems and developments for the short term benefit of the influential/wealthy few.

The secretive nature of our Gov(s) to protect their dubious dealings with big business (way way to intimate).

The lack of Gov oversight of big business and appropriate punishment for the high flyers that transgress.

ETC. ETC

[turboplanner]

Skippy, all of that might be true but this thread is about risks and your liability and gives examples of developments which can affect us all.

For example #300 is important for everyone who flies or for that matter supplies aircraft, and other examples show the details of how some cases played out.

Knowing how those situations are likely to affect us is very helpful for us going forward, regardless of the business policy.

[skippydiesel]

Skippy, all of that might be true but this thread is about risks and your liability and gives examples of developments which can affect us all.

For example #300 is important for everyone who flies or for that matter supplies aircraft, and other examples show the details of how some cases played out.

Knowing how those situations are likely to affect us is very helpful for us going forward, regardless of the business policy.

 

True! true! - my craven apologies for pursuing the cardinal sin of thread drift.

 

One point however: -

 

The commercialisation of liability claims/damage suits, is a great "money spinner" for the legal profession. So much so that they advertise on TV and will "chase ambulances" to solicit trade.

This same profession has extraordinary access to our legislators (many of whom have legal training/contacts).

This is a good example of "privatisation" of a service that enriches the few, provides doubtful justice to the litigants and costs the community very dearly in both social & financial terms.

It is my perception that the inefficiencies & inequities in this lucrative system are therefor very unlikely to be addressed any time soon (my lifetime).

[walrus]

Privatisation works just fine where there is already a vibrant, efficient market. Elsewhere, not so much - like healthcare.

 

Compounding that problem is the use of contracts for public servants. In the old days, you got “full and frank’’ advice from the PS. Today, not so much because you want your contract renewed or a job with the service provider.

 

Add to that some PC bullshit and you get 26 year old arts graduates (?) organising covid quarantine hotels and security.......with predictable unpleasant results.

[Jim McDowall]

The commercialisation of liability claims/damage suits, is a great "money spinner" for the legal profession.

In my experience the people who gain most from these sorts of claims are the legal profession especially those who embark on "no win - no fee" claims. No win no fee should be banned. The rule should be full fee or pro-bono. On the matter of fees, the use of "scale fees" is anti-competitive and leads to bill padding without performance.

[Old Koreelah]

Privatisation works just fine where there is already a vibrant, efficient market. Elsewhere, not so much - like healthcare...

When governments push privatisation, only those services likely to make a profit are snapped up by commercial operators. All the rest, no matter how vital, become burdens on taxpayers, with the inevitable running down of quality.

Modern liberal democracies were built on cross-subsidisation of services, but now the rich are asset-stripping the golden goose.

[facthunter]

The more litigious a scene becomes the more innovation and progress is stifled in it.. General Aviation production in the USA almost went extinct due excess and badly targeted litigation. US has more lawyers per person than any other country in the world. Nev

[turboplanner]

This one's a bit unusual in that Victoria's TAC was involved, but it includes the normal elements: a duty of care was owed, the duty of care was breached. It also inludes the exlanation that it wasn't intentional.

 

This would be of interest to someone who loans or hires and aircraft.

WX00161.pdf