Public Liability

[turboplanner]

What sort of farming are you doing?

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Mainly meat sheep, between Horsham and Naracoorte. On the paddocks used for hay, I work to clear the fallen branches away, dreaming of how just one of the 300 nearby young recipients of newstart benefits would be a great help.

 

Alas the minimum wage is way more that their efforts could yield, and also the legal risk of employing them is unacceptable. So me, at 70, has to do it all while paying tax to support these young people while they sleep in all day. Wonderful system huh?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Mainly meat sheep, between Horsham and Naracoorte. On the paddocks used for hay, I work to clear the fallen branches away, dreaming of how just one of the 300 nearby young recipients of newstart benefits would be a great help.Alas the minimum wage is way more that their efforts could yield, and also the legal risk of employing them is unacceptable. So me, at 70, has to do it all while paying tax to support these young people while they sleep in all day. Wonderful system huh?

We had Merinos at Naracoorte.

How about a stick rake on the front of the tractor?

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yes a tractor can help, but then you really need a second person or else you are up and down from the tractor all the time.

 

Anyway, the issue here is that the liability system has gone so far amok that it is creating unemployment and poverty.

 

One local farmer had a breakdown ( polite speak for went insane) after getting a threatening letter from a lawyer because an employee injured himself. Apparently the employee was disobeying instructions at the time, but that story would surely change after a bit of coaching.

 

Anyway, what do you have in mind for all those young people on newstart turbs? More aimless days? While the old folk do all the work?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Bruce you've nailed one of the major issues of our time..and which politician is doing anything about it?

 

A ray of hope: the current Federal Parliament has a variety of new Senators, each of whom can have enormous influence. Some of them are surely worth approaching.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes a tractor can help, but then you really need a second person or else you are up and down from the tractor all the time.Anyway, the issue here is that the liability system has gone so far amok that it is creating unemployment and poverty.

One local farmer had a breakdown ( polite speak for went insane) after getting a threatening letter from a lawyer because an employee injured himself. Apparently the employee was disobeying instructions at the time, but that story would surely change after a bit of coaching.

 

Anyway, what do you have in mind for all those young people on newstart turbs? More aimless days? While the old folk do all the work?

If you're talking about boughs from gum trees, I cleared 60 hectares with a stick rake on a tractor in about six weeks, and the paddock was up to mowing standard, by dozing the boughs and fallen trees into windrows then dozing the windrows into heaps, then burning the heaps by dozing the dry boughs and sticks into the centre until it was all burnt. (That was after the trees had been knocked over, so it was a permanent fix.

If the trees are along the boundary, you have the option of fencing the trees and putting the sheep in there, rather than pick u; they'll clean around every stick. What they're eating in that pane, they're not eating in the area you're growing for bales.

 

Newstart is for helping people to make a new start, a new career, and I don't think you could con the government into paying for stick picking as a career training option.

 

However, your could try wwoofers WWOOF - Home You don't pay them anything, just cover their board and food; but if you want them to use machinery etc. you still have to ensure they are qualified or trained to meet your duty of care obligations.

 

If you are on lambplan and are weighing the lambs, checking eye muscle dimensions, and supplying a premium lamb to the abattoirs and its the stick picking that's sending you into a loss, then I understand you have a problem, but if you're not to that level, there are options which produce enough profit to have someone clean up the boughs.

 

You have a big advantage over many others in having an abattoir less than an hour away.

 

As far as not being able to get free stick pickers being the cause of some Australia-wide trend to out of control food prices, it's worth looking at who your competitors are:

 

Feed Conversion Ratios are approximately:

 

Sheep (poor quality forage) Over 6

 

Beef Cattle: 6

 

Sheep (Good quality high concentrate): 4 - 5

 

Poultry: 1.8

 

Barramundi ).68

 

The ratios are kilogrammes of feed in per kilogramme at market.

 

So it's possible you are feeding 150% more in hay than you would in grain, and you could then leave the boughs for native animals.

 

In the Cities the food of choice is chicken, and I know two brothers in the Riverina who were killiong 350,000 chickens per week, and one year had a feed bill of $8 million.

 

Lamb's market share is very small, and that's what's hurting your industry, not the odd case of public liability, or having to pay employees a decent wage.

 

Throughout Australia you will always find farmers in any district making good money, and others scraping to make ends meet; the many variables are what does it.

 

I feel sorry for the old guy if he was down to a one on one disagreement over who said what, but on the other hand I also know a farmer who started out in prime lambs in the mid north about ten years ago, bought a second property in the malleee, bought a third property near Ceduna and a fourth in the same general area, all financed by his lamb sales, and he employs people and talks compliance.

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

This case hasn't gone to court yet.

 

No Cookies | Herald Sun

 

Investigation: AO-2013-136 - Helicopter winching accident involving Bell Helicopter Co. 412EP, VH-VAS, 19 km south-south-east of Mansfield, Victoria on 31 August 2013

 

Lawsuit over fatal Ambulance Victoria helicopter accident

 

 

[REastwood]

... find that lawsuits for negligence is usually for something you forgot to do, like put a cover over, or barrier around a trench, provide a sefty harness for the hayshed,put the guard back on the post driver etc.

And here is the core of the problem - IT'S A TRENCH! - look where you are going, stop playing Pokemon, get the earphones out of your ears and pay attention to what you are doing. Haysheds and post drivers/hole diggers are dangerous - pay attention when using them! This country and it's legal system has to stop shifting the blame from the person who made the mistake of falling in the trench to the person who, apparently, made a "mistake" by not covering a trench.

 

Today, with the Falls fron Heights legislation set at 2 metres without railing or a harness, you couldn't take the risk doing that.

It's a matter of not putting someone at risk of an accident.

This is why the cost of building a house has nearly doubled, because of stupid legislation like this. When will people realise that EVERYTHING IN LIFE IS A RISK!!! Stop trying to reduce risk to zero, there will always be people who cannot recognise, or choose to ignore, risk and society should not have to protect these people (at huge cost). This is the heart of the aviation issues in Australia, CASA want Risk/Blame free flying which is killing aviation. People will always make mistakes, have accidents, be stupid etc. Society cannot afford to protect these people 100%, sure we shouldn't go too far the other way and have live wires dangling from street poles either, as always a balance should be found, but societies are notoriously bad at getting this right.

 

 

[turboplanner]

And here is the core of the problem - IT'S A TRENCH! - look where you are going, stop playing Pokemon, get the earphones out of your ears and pay attention to what you are doing. Haysheds and post drivers/hole diggers are dangerous - pay attention when using them! This country and it's legal system has to stop shifting the blame from the person who made the mistake of falling in the trench to the person who, apparently, made a "mistake" by not covering a trench.

This is a good example of how some people see the problem in the reverse of what the law does.

Did the person who changed the safe condition to unsafe (there was no trench to fall into before) owe a duty of care to anyone passing? I'd say yes.

 

Was the duty of care breached by not providing a guard rail or cover or filling the trench back in? I'd say yes.

 

I'm just talking generally here, and can't get into analysis over whether the person who fell in was playing Pokemon, or had the earphones in; there is such a thing as contributory negligence, and a court may well apportion blame, and the plaintiff has the job of proving the defendant was negligent.

 

As for "pay attention when using them"; specific operating procedures are needed rather than just a motherhood statement.

 

When will people realise that EVERYTHING IN LIFE IS A RISK!!! Stop trying to reduce risk to zero, there will always be people who cannot recognise, or choose to ignore, risk and society should not have to protect these people (at huge cost). People will always make mistakes, have accidents, be stupid etc. Society cannot afford to protect these people 100%

I agree society shouldn't be paying to protect people; and we don't, since the mid 1980's. Nothing else has really changed, just governments deciding that taxpayers shouldn't pay, that costs should be borne by the people involved.

 

You're aiming the spotlight on the people who are injured/killed.

 

When you look at the cases, some are lost by the victims, indicating they were at fault, some are lost by the defendant, which might be a company, or an employer, or an individual, but the vast majority are settled out of court, indicating there may have been some blame on each side.

 

As far as houses costing double, and the end of the world coming, I've seen two examples recently which show how simple compliance can be.

 

1. A Telstra guy showed up to do some work on a Telstra pit on out property. From a rack in his van, he pulled a yellow tubular frame, unfolded it, and the pit was guarded on four side in a matter of 30 seconds.

 

2. At the supermarket someone dropped a bottle on the floor which released a liquid. An employee walked up with two packs of salt, broke them open and covered the spill, result: situation secured in a fraction of the time when someone would walk to the store and bring out a mop and "wet floor" signs.

 

 

[johnm]

as said before - I am told the NZ model for accident compensation ? has been beneficial - a levy is paid by each tax payer ?

 

if you lose a finger its so much - if you lose a leg .................. you get more. A life, more again

 

no worse than any levy that any Oz now pays for the courts, pills, roads, health, aviation safety (should I also mention pollies ?)

 

etc etc

 

could be something to consider & might be a fairer society

 

of course any change will mean someone will miss out on the existing money shuffle in our Courts

 

 

[spacesailor]

No

 

Unless they have changed their legislation in NZ, No compensation, 4 weeks pay from employer (minimum wage), 6 weeks by government. then onto unemployment benefit! & No lumpsum payment.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[coljones]

as said before - I am told the NZ model for accident compensation ? has been beneficial - a levy is paid by each tax payer ?if you lose a finger its so much - if you lose a leg .................. you get more. A life, more again

 

no worse than any levy that any Oz now pays for the courts, pills, roads, health, aviation safety (should I also mention pollies ?)

 

etc etc

 

could be something to consider & might be a fairer society

 

of course any change will mean someone will miss out on the existing money shuffle in our Courts

Compensation does not bring back a life. Governments are pushing compensation to be terminal and constrained. If you don't discover your condition before date X you will lose all claims, or an insurance company will try to shoehorn you into a (any) job that they deem you can do - (almost) end of story.

It is far better all round if the danger never existed or if it needed to exist then it was mitigated to the fullest extent possible and that the person creating the danger bears primary responsibility.

 

 

[jakej]

if you lose a finger its so much - if you lose a leg .................. you get more. A life, more again

 

Are you sure ? I figure I'd get nothing

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Have I got you right Turbs, you say the solution for the local unemployed is that the local farmers need to be smarter so they can pay award wages and safety compliance costs? And what are the unemployed supposed to do while waiting for this to happen?

 

Maybe the farmers need some smart pills. I asked my GP for some smart pills and he said he didn't have any... useless GP huh.

 

 

[M61A1]

Just for the record, in QLD at least, the safe working height is no longer 2M. It changed several years ago to any height you can fall from. Safety equipment suppliers love this stuff.

 

This is a good example of how some people see the problem in the reverse of what the law does.

2. At the supermarket someone dropped a bottle on the floor which released a liquid. An employee walked up with two packs of salt, broke them open and covered the spill, result: situation secured in a fraction of the time when someone would walk to the store and bring out a mop and "wet floor" signs.

Actually it's a really good example of how the law does things backwards to normal thinking.

 

The salt thing was good thinking, but I bet he probably got raked over the coal for cleaning a spill using a "non-approved method". Not even trying to be funny there.

 

I've seen people put "trip hazard"signs up for big yellow and black aircon hoses that are 18 inches round, makes me wonder just what is going on in their mind. I think that a lot of them are just so worried about being sued they go overboard just being seen to have done something, then someone sees it and thinks "gee that's a good idea", then it just snowballs from there.

 

 

 

[coljones]

Just for the record, in QLD at least, the safe working height is no longer 2M. It changed several years ago to any height you can fall from. Safety equipment suppliers love this stuff.

 

Actually it's a really good example of how the law does things backwards to normal thinking.

 

The salt thing was good thinking, but I bet he probably got raked over the coal for cleaning a spill using a "non-approved method". Not even trying to be funny there.

 

I've seen people put "trip hazard"signs up for big yellow and black aircon hoses that are 18 inches round, makes me wonder just what is going on in their mind. I think that a lot of them are just so worried about being sued they go overboard just being seen to have done something, then someone sees it and thinks "gee that's a good idea", then it just snowballs from there.

 

[ATTACH=full]45491[/ATTACH]

He/she probably got hauled over the coals for wasting the salt and their time. Didn't he/she understand that it wasn't their job and besides you turned 18 five minutes ago so you are sacked!! No penalty rates, no overtime, no casual rates, erratic and short shifts and on the scrapheap at 18,

 

 

[Ron5335]

2. At the supermarket someone dropped a bottle on the floor which released a liquid. An employee walked up with two packs of salt, broke them open and covered the spill, result: situation secured in a fraction of the time when someone would walk to the store and bring out a mop and "wet floor" signs.

Hey Turbs, (Out of the frying pan and into the fire)

 

So your telling me that you witnessed the spillage of a substance in a public place, and then watched an employee start mixing other chemicals into it, and this newly created chemical cocktail was mopped up by other employees. (And you think this is good !!!!!!)

 

What happened to this unidentified substance, Was it stored in a Hazmat bin where industrial chemists could analyse it, and formulate a safe disposal for it? Or was it simply washed down the drain for convenience?, where it may have knocked out the the entire Eco System of the sewerage system, and wiped out mankind as we know it..

 

Why didn't you act, and demand the area be immediately evacuated upon the initial spill, and ring 000 to bring in specially trained Hazmat Professionals to deal with the situation. (That would have been the professional thing to do.) Instead, you let this situation escalate by doing nothing.

 

So in the legal fraternity, the Public Liability lawyers get the month off, and the courts get filled with the Environmental Lawyers.

 

Where does it all end ????????????

 

(If I couldn't sleep before opening this, I certainly can't now)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well, I guess if salt and tomato sauce are going to knock out the entire Eco System of the sewerage system, our guts are about stuffed.

 

 

[Ron5335]

May be only tomato sauce and salt to you, But are you qualified to make the call ???

 

There was an incident years ago in rural NSW where a milk tanker overturned and the tank ruptured spilling milk everywhere.

 

It's only milk............ No action required...

 

The only thing was, the land was a part of the catchment for the local dam that fed the town.

 

The end result was the milk entered the storage area and knocked out oxygen content of the bio system and killed of all the living things that

 

lived in the water, then their decaying bodies made the water unfit for human use.

 

For weeks after, while massive pumps were brought in to flock the dam to enrich en the oxygen content of the dam water, all of the water for the town had to be trucked in.

 

And that story has been etched into stone for HAZMAT training.

 

Nothing personal, but I couldn't resist the opportunity where you offered a clear case to state your case, but in so doing opened up another way of viewing the same situation. Probably reflective of this whole thread.

 

At the end of the day, whether your on the for or against side, no matter how qualified or how many degrees, diplomas, certificates, licences, cards the witnesses hold, I bet not one could supply a qualification that states they have the ability to wipe their own own bum in the approved manner.

 

BING !!!!!!!!!! I might introduce that course

 

 

[turboplanner]

No, I'm not qualified to make the call.

 

You've made a good point about the chemical situation.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Luckily for them, there is one profession which is immune from liability. Yes, you guessed it, its the legal profession.

 

There you can be, losing everything because of an incompetent lawyer, or there you can be getting murdered by a deranged maniac allowed to run free by a negligent judge. But guess what? They are immune.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Luckily for them, there is one profession which is immune from liability. Yes, you guessed it, its the legal profession.There you can be, losing everything because of an incompetent lawyer, or there you can be getting murdered by a deranged maniac allowed to run free by a negligent judge. But guess what? They are immune.

Well fortunately this thread is about Public Liability rather than Australia's weirdest crimes, so we don't have to watch out for deranged maniacs.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Turbs

 

Do So.

 

In the parliament, it's full of deranged maniacs, Just need to be certified.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Just in the paper today, there was this couple badly bashed at a McDonalds. The bashers both had a long history of violence, but had never been locked up. They should have been locked up at the time they did the bashing.

 

Now I say that the judges who let them loose should be liable, what their negligence caused was far worse than crashing a plane.

 

 

[turboplanner]

This case is worth following over the next few years, for those involved in fly ins, Natfly etc - gatherings where you have to set up the venue and invite spectators.

 

The number of claimants is quie big, but we have much the same prinicples - duty of care for safe access and exit, and safe conduct of the event

 

Dozens of 'terrified' Falls Festival crowd stampede victims launch class action