Any advice

[frank marriott]

As a resul of a flight from Adelaide to Townsville last week in a J170 my copilot had an ipad with Oz Runways and an external GPS I was so impressed with what he had available compared with all my paper maps etc I am going to buy one within the next couple of weeks.

 

Any advice / opinions woulld be appreciated as many on this site already use this data - I am no IT expert but use the available info when prestented.

 

Catches and shortfalls that others have experienced may save me money as it is a bit out of my filed of knoweldge.

 

FrankM

 

 

[kgwilson]

My advice is to specify what you want advice on. That'd be a good start.

 

 

[djpacro]

Leaves it open to offer advice on almost any subject. Must be a big airplane for there to be a copilot so plenty of room for real navaids and some-one to make the tea and coffee.

 

 

[frank marriott]

My query was more about OZ runways or other products - As I have only seen one I was wondering if other options are better or not.

 

djpacro - I used the term copilot loosely as the pilot/owner had his open licence for less then a week and felt better to have someone with more flying time with him for a long first flight - I was only there to confirm that his decisions were correct - didn't need me but felt happier.

 

If someone has some constructive information about the programes available it would be appreciated otherwise I will just go on what I have observed.

 

FrankM

 

 

[kgwilson]

When I first looked at the post only the first sentence was there and it finished with GPS. Now that the rest of it is there I don't have any advice other than the normal thing that electronics can fail leaving you with nothing. Maps & hard copy ERSA etc do not need batteries.

 

 

[frank marriott]

When I first looked at the post only the first sentence was there and it finished with GPS. Now that the rest of it is there I don't have any advice other than the normal thing that electronics can fail leaving you with nothing. Maps & hard copy ERSA etc do not need batteries.

Sorry I somehow posted before I was finished with my query and then edited it. As happpened now

 

 

[djpacro]

Frank, I see that your first post now has more text in it. Have you read this thread? http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/ozrunways-vs-avplan.41208/#post-225186

 

I have only used OzRunways so no comment from me on any comparisons.

 

I use Ozrunways with an old wifi iPad 1 and external GPS. Marvellous. iPhone 3S with Ozrunways as backup. If the airplane doesn't have a power socket I carry a portable power supply. iPad battery lasts as long as I'd want to fly in a day but I never trust electronic stuff. My iPhone's battery doesn't last long running OzRunways full-time but I have used it happily by only turning it on every now and then. Works well inverted too.

 

I wouldn't rely on that iPhone's internal GPS - I have noticed it drop out and the system use mobile phone towers for location with no flag to indicate the problem. OzRunways will not display a location if it determines insufficient accuracy however I and my friends have experienced this - location shown 50 miles in error. My external GPS has little flashing lights to indicate all is OK and software to check details at any time.

 

Perhaps the more modern iPhones are better. Certainly my friends with more modern iPads are very happy with the internal GPS.

 

CASA has told me that electronic documents meet the regulatory requirement (I enquired wrt day VFR) so I don't carry paper ERSA any more but maps are easy to stow.

 

 

[Herm]

OZ runways is fantastic and a local Australian product. At the last Natfly just about everyone was using it. I have it on my IPhone and my iPad in flight. You will hear all sorts of comments about electronic and batts failing and letting you down. Hmmmmm If you left your flight bag at the hotel you would not have paper maps would you? You only have one battery in your plane and has that failed you. In fact you only have a single power supply in you aircraft. If we had a polar magnetic switch that has happened before you compass would be wrong.... Etc etc... Oz runways is a great flight system and I would use it all the time. I still carry maps and still have my panel GPS. Now days we have electric assistance on phones, iPads, GPS and watches.. And also on paper... Did we ever use symbols on stone? Forget that one it will mess up you MTOW. LOL.. Don,t forget that when you have a out landing you will know you location in long and lat as GPS co odds... Your maps won't give you that when you radio your location..

 

Every bit worth the money...

 

Mardy

 

 

[frank marriott]

"electronics can fail leaving you with nothing. Maps & hard copy ERSA etc do not need batteries."

 

No arguement from me in relation the that statement - I have been flying since 1979 and as you would know the current electronics were not around then.

 

When I did my CIR the rules of 5 times the rated coverage of the next on track aide was real and now doing the same thing when you intercept the next ADF it is a good feeling to find you are spot on track [all be it referring to a non TSOed GPS] - if the new gadget fails it is not your primary nav instrument being VFR or IFR

 

FrankM

 

 

[frank marriott]

Thanks for the comments and I will probably go OZ runways but I just thought I would invite comments before I spent the $1000.00 I liked what I saw but other experiences are worth hearing.

 

FrankM

 

 

[djpacro]

... Hmmmmm If you left your flight bag at the hotel you would not have paper maps would you? You only have one battery in your plane and has that failed you. ..

If you are on the ground with a fault or missing stuff then you get to decide whether it is safe/legal to go or not. The aeroplane indeed has one battery (apart from those that have two) but it has two independent sources of electricity. A better comparison is the risk of losing maps from an open cockpit airplane. Another comparison is the risk of losing spectacles so you can't read the stuff anyway, but of course everyone carries spare specs don't they?Regardless, assess the risks and mitigate as appropriate - iStuff with OzRunways backups are easy.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Frank, I have also been watching this technology closely, and I feel a nav/gps upgrade will soon be in order for my aircraft.

 

As with all techy stuff, things are, and do change often, and one must pick the right time to'jump in' and spend the dough !....for hopefully at least five years of suitable in-flight service.

 

I have friends at the moment using new systems, and aps, on a flight around Australia in a Savannah, and I look foward to see how it all works out for them.

 

As far as Herms' comment that everybody was using it at Natfly, well that's simply not true. I for one did the trip there and back, on my old trusty standard GPS with paper-map backup, with no dramas as usual.

 

My current basic set-up, (which was high-tech 5-10 years ago) has served me well and faultlessly for many years now, including at least two trips Townsville-Temora and return. It has never let me down, and I trust it emphatically over all types of (often remote) country. I like systems that are simple and easy to use in the cockpit, so I get to spend more time looking out the window at the view !...

 

Although I didn't get a chance to attend Bas Schiffers' forums on Ozrunways (standing room only) at Natfly, I did enjoy an evening dining with him and others at a local resturant, and I believe his system and aps are top notch, and cutting edge. I continue to watch developements closely, for the right time to 'jump in' on some new stuff myself...........................................................................................Maj...

 

 

[Herm]

Frank, I have also been watching this technology closely, and I feel a nav/gps upgrade will soon be in order for my aircraft.As with all techy stuff, things are, and do change often, and one must pick the right time to'jump in' and spend the dough !....for hopefully at least five years of suitable in-flight service.

I have friends at the moment using new systems, and aps, on a flight around Australia in a Savannah, and I look foward to see how it all works out for them.

 

As far as Herms' comment that everybody was using it at Natfly, well that's simply not true. I for one did the trip there and back, on my old trusty standard GPS with paper-map backup, with no dramas as usual.

 

My current basic set-up, (which was high-tech 5-10 years ago) has served me well and faultlessly for many years now, including at least two trips Townsville-Temora and return. It has never let me down, and I trust it emphatically over all types of (often remote) country. I like systems that are simple and easy to use in the cockpit, so I get to spend more time looking out the window at the view !...

 

Although I didn't get a chance to attend Bas Schiffers' forums on Oz runways (standing room only) at Natfly, I did enjoy an evening dining with him and others at a local resturant, and I believe his system and aps are top notch, and cutting edge. I continue to watch developements closely, for the right time to 'jump in' on some new stuff myself...........................................................................................Maj...

My comments were to enable thought. Anything new is met in this manner. When electric guitars came out they were evil and would never replace acoustics. Now we see full glass panels in planes that the old flyers would roll over if the tried to use one... It's just change and allows for more flying time in the aircraft. Less busy and that makes it safer... Please read my comment again as what I said was not untrue.. I did not state that everybody was using OZ Runways? That would be a silly statement LOL

 

Love this stuff,,,, it gets people looking and talking and things then improve.....Progress

 

Mardy

 

 

[dutchroll]

For day VFR? It looks like a great bit of kit. I've seen it used, unofficially and just for curiosity of course, at 35,000ft. It would be more than adequate just by itself. However here are some factors to consider:

 

Battery life - iPads can chew through the juice when you're using graphics and/or processing intensive apps. It's very easy to forget to charge it up and takeoff with low charge status. Have a think about contingencies for that. Can you draw aircraft power for it? Spare battery? Etc etc.

 

Chart backup - paper copies of vtcs or vncs weigh next to nothing and take up almost no space. At the very least to get you out of trouble if your iPad has a conniption or loses power, some paper charts (even out of date ones should be sufficient in a contingency) stuffed in a corner or somewhere vaguely within arm's reach might be the go. All the major airlines who are moving to electronic pubs bags have either multiple electronic pubs bags, or a stowed set of emergency paper charts, or often a combo of both.

 

I see ozrunways on the iPad as a fantastic "convenience" innovation. It's not too hard to learn to use, and it saves flicking through numerous different bits of paper map/chart/ersa publications in the cockpit, while it sits there right on your knee (or wherever). But I'm not sure I would takeoff on a VFR cross-country with a single iPad as the sole piece of navigation or documentation gear! Having flown the Caribou many years ago and losing two WACs out the open pilot's side window in the space of 2 days (yeah, you'd think I would've learned after the first one), I can vouch for backups!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Herm, I agree that Ozrunways is a good piece of gear, and probabily as good as it gets currently, and yes I too enjoy lively discussion and progress !!...(especially lively discussion !)..............................................................Maj...

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

I'm sold on the Ozrunway kit, on my iPad 3GS it is awesome, the latest update has a lot of fixes, the platform is stable and updates quickly, very power hungry though but if you reduce the brightness it improves slightly. I have a Fisher Mk 1, so paper can be a problem, dont worry Mr CASA, I have the required paper copies with me when I go long distance. I have a kneeboard that holds the iPad in place and a flight bag that sits at my side with the paper junk in it. To back it all up I also have a Garmin GPS 196, so should I get lost "I SHOULDN'T LEAVE THE CIRCUIT AREA", I love the gizmo's available, but always have my position fixed on a paper copy and a paper flight plan, but at 60kts and in VMC I don't have many problems. I have a fuel endurance of 5 1/2 hours with the reserve remaining of an hour, if the bladder holds out that long and the turbulence doesn't change my plan, I'll go for the full time, the iPad has plenty of battery juice for that, I use a charger inflight so all is good anyway. Another thing I like is the "Find My Device" App, so if I am within phone coverage and the wife is looking for me, she can track my progress and not worry so much..

 

 

[Graham Pukallus]

Frank, go for it, recommend blue tooth GPS receiver for ultimate accuracy, agree with DJPacro that you need dead reckoning nav, chart as primary as have had experiences some years ago when the GPS lost satellite fixes or shut down on a top brand aviation GPS at of course the most inopportune time and never forget it. I have just return to flying and use the usual charts, Garmin 795 and OzRunways latest series as 3rd backup, partner (Val) keeps Ipad on her lap and follows our trip progress. The more safe you can make flying the better and enjoyable to boot. Enjoy! Graham & Val

 

 

[Doug Evans]

I use oZrunway in my car as learning tool and in my parasol I found it a tool very reliable & up todate tool

 

I still plan with maps but use them as a backup when required I look forward to the time when the Ipad will replace the old out dated system . I will be mounting a place in my lightwing for my eletronic flight bag :-)

 

 

[68volksy]

Remember the need to still carry all the paper documents - my only gripe with Ozrunways is the marketing they're doing in promoting their product as meeting the requirements to carry all the required documents. Was at an ozrunways presentation where the presenter and a couple of audience members got very vicious when a couple of CASA guys tried to question their position on the carrying of paper documents.

 

Be pretty daft to rely entirely on an electronic device for everything anyway! Putting your life in the hands of a couple of IT guys out to make a buck is not a smart move.

 

I'm an analogue kind of guy in my spare time though so have little interest in the GPS stuff I must say. Nothing wrong with a good old bit of paper, a pencil and some brain power!

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

must admit to a wry smile when i hear folks accurately say .....risk of failure...potential problem...paper backup etc At the same time we all carry a 406Mhz beacon, most of which contain a GPS, most of which are never tested at all and most of which will become, in the event of need, a last possible option before death!!!! No body ever says carry a main beacon and then a spare, oh by the way has that got a cigarette lighter power cable for extended batter life ...... Which are potentially just as viable as questioning the need for multiple GPS's multiple computers etc

 

Andy

 

 

[turboplanner]

must admit to a wry smile when i hear folks accurately say .....risk of failure...potential problem...paper backup etc At the same time we all carry a 406Mhz beacon, most of which contain a GPS, most of which are never tested at all and most of which will become, in the event of need, a last possible option before death!!!! No body ever says carry a main beacon and then a spare, oh by the way has that got a cigarette lighter power cable for extended batter life ...... Which are potentially just as viable as questioning the need for multiple GPS's multiple computers etcAndy

Anyone flying RC aircraft is familiar with the need to test, even test twice, all the batteries in all the equipment, so this preflight check would apply to the beacon, which will not be drawing current until it is activated, and will only be used if the owner is on the way down, and will only be needed if the PIC/Passenger are unconscious/bleeding/in need of urgent medical help and need to be found etc. In otherwords AFTER the event.

 

Using electronic equipment (particularly the cheap Chinese products) can set in train the process which can LEAD to the event, so there is a difference, and a number of things can occur:

 

• You would be familiar with the most common from iphone use; you've been absorbed using the machine and then go out in the car and find you've got less than 20% battery, and come home without a phone. There's a good chance a Type C Personality will do this with his battery operated GPS.
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

• GPS unit failure
   
   
  
• GPS battery failure
   
   
  
• Un-noticed battery charger drop out in flight
   
   
  

 

 

These are some of the things that can result in an instant loss of position reference.

 

Without a map, you are then down to relying on your eyeballs like the explorers in the 15 th Century, and just look at the crazy maps they produced.

 

Even with a map, MANY occasional flyers have a period where nothing is matching the map.

 

There are parts of Australia, such as Gippsland in Victoria where you can't get badly lost using the eyeball method because there are east/west mountains to the north and an east west coastline to the south and you can see it all at once.

 

People from areas like this usually post in that you don't need a map etc, can find your way home, but if you're flying over the other 95% of Australia, your goose is cooked and you are a candidate for fuel exhaustion if you can't find a place to get down.

 

With the exception of open cockpit, I really don't see how hard it is to flight plan and mark your course on a WAC Chart, and log your progress as you go along.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Turbo

 

Maybe I was less than clear in my post. I do not advocate flying without paper maps where there is any real distance to be travelled. To do so would be taking a risk that simply isnt needed.

 

It was more that in my opinion people have a narrow view of failure when talking about GPS failures. I would suggest (without the stats to back up the claim) that the likelihood of engine failure is higher than the likelihood of a Garmin GPS failure (Ignoring lack of fix due poor visibility of the satelites by the device....which isnt failure as such just lack of reception). That said, buy a completely unknown brand of GPS straight from ebay and Im sure you can push up the chances of failure of GPS. But to be honest if I could choose between inflight failkure of GPS and failure of engine then I'm sure that you, like me, would choose GPS every time. even with no paper backup but especially if you have the backup paper maps.......

 

As to the beacon, the test that we do on the beacon simply says its inbuilt self test is OK, not that the battery will last for as long as claimed.

 

But for the purposes of checking...who tests their beacon before every flight? I would be amazed if everyone did......I havent for every flight.

 

WRT the comment around difficulty in navigating, when I purchased my J I flew it from Tully to Adeaide stopping at Aramac (QLD), Nockundra (QLD) and a station near Broken Hill. For much of that country navigating with just a paper map would indeed be a challenge unless you went IFR I follow Roads and Railways. makes it very clear how brave the early aviators were given the low quality maps and aircraft reliability.

 

Andy

 

 

[jetjr]

For my 2 cents worth having just been through the purchase

 

Get an 16gb Ipad with telstra 3g - without Next G you wont get in flight weather, radar etcetc. With the 3G models you get the GPS built in. Ive had no accuracy issues at all in a Jabiru. Im told external GPS are great but its another thing to charge up/plug in or pair up with bluetooth etcetc.

 

I bought Ipad 3 under a plan and pay the device off over 2 years but the cheapest is to buy outright and then prepurchase data package ~ 150gb. Key here is the big data pack lasts 12 mths unlike other prepaid setups where you loose the excess every month. Telstra is similar price for the device as anywhere else. These rules change often so look which data plan is best for you at the time.

 

Make sure you do the installation and upgrades somewhere with WiFi connection or it will chew up your Next G data plan fast.

 

Ive used Oz Runways mainly and its very good. Not perfect but they keep coming with new features. Avplan appears OK too and has some better features I think in places but I have had it crash and on the new Ipad the screen movement is terrible (maybe Im doing something wrong)

 

Best plan is that both offer 30 days free trial, try them and decide what you like OR just buy both for 1 yr then decide

 

Buy a cig plug charger and its all working. A leg or dash mount is pretty essential too.

 

I will always carry paper WAC etc although use them less every trip.

 

The Ipad carries all the full service manuals for the engine and aircraft, ERSA, AIP, VFR guide, ERC low, flight planner etc etc. You also have access to up to date weather, Notams, radar. Really is a game changer in terms of information available. Just need to avoid the tendancy to have your eyes inside the cockpit too much.

 

A key advantage many overlook is the data in the App like Ozrunways is always updated. Carrying a paper map or ERSA thats a year or so old is a waste of time.

 

Down side with anything complex is possible failure which is really very unlikely. If your going somewhere you are new to then use the map more or a secondary GPS as backup. As TP said with the GPS working is really is easy to keep track on the map just in case theres a problem.

 

 

[skeptic36]

Hi all,

 

How many gig of data would you need to have on a plan to maintain an occasional flying habit. It doesn't use any download to maintain moving maps while in the air, does it?

 

Thanks

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Herm]

It gets me that we all strap ourselves into a single engine aircraft and risk our lives. What if the engine fails or runs out of power (fuel leaks out). Hmmmm that's it! I am going to buy a twin with two fuel tanks, two batts and I think it needs to be a biplane so I have an extra wing. I guess it's each to thier own.. Just fly safe and make sure you have a backup plan no matter what your choice of navigation options. It seems that the electronic option does conform if it uses current Air Services Data. However that subject is also met will opinions of all sorts. Ask 3 CASA reps the question and you will get 5 diff answers.

 

All good stuff

 

Mardy