How accurate should my flying be??

[J170 Owner]

There was a time when stalls, spins, wing overs etc. were fun but as I have grown older, my bravery has somewhat diminished (converted to fat?).

 

 

[turboplanner]

SizeSlope

Surface

 

Surrounds

 

Situation

 

rgmwa

That's all for a forced landing? What about the Mayday call etc?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I have a 100 hours flying experience? since I got my ticket. I often feel it's the same hour done 100 times. IMHO, at my flying club at least, there has to be more work done on improving/furthering the skills/experience of people like me other than letting them fend for themselves. "Why don't you do it yourself?" I hear you ask I would love to know how I could accomplish that without killing myself. I read a lot about all matters flying, but putting it into practise without someone with experience sitting in the right hand seat is nigh on impossible.

This and Ballpoint's original post must be two of the most valuable we've seen on Recflying.

 

Paul Craig wrote a book "The Killing Zone", and at 100 hrs you're right in the middle of it, but having identified key issues, you're probably well on the way to being one of the surviving majority.

 

I've grappled with much the same thoughts as you over the years - the amount of knowledge we accumulate in a short time during training is huge and quite complicated.

 

There are some people who say it's just like getting on a horse - you never forget, so I'll use the horse example.

 

When you get back on a horse after a few months, you're going to have a blistered arse, leg muscles that will see you tottering for days, stirrup bruises, other bruises when you slid off because you forgot to anticipate the habit of that particular horse, and maybe even a couple of bite marks.

 

They are all recency issues which don't occur when you ride every week.

 

Flying's the same.

 

The solution is to go up with an instructor every week or so Pete. (It's illegal to have someone other than an instructor manipulate the controls from the right seat)

 

I know the answer to that one - "who can afford it?"

 

Radio and circuit check lists can be practised using Flightsim, but I've been a complete failure at that, trying to complete the circuit in 2 minutes, or losing concentration and doing snap rolls.

 

One guy once told me he flew every week, but only a 15 minute flight - that's just a bit over 12 hours a year. He said that was enough to keep him current with the busy circuit/radio procedures of the busy Moorabbin Airport.

 

I haven't found a solution other than throwing money at an Instructor to bring myself up to date with handling and procedures like forced landings where there's no point if you know when it's going to happen.

 

 

[rgmwa]

That's all for a forced landing? What about the Mayday call etc?

Of course there is, but Gnu was asking about the one with all the S's. In fact the first S, which I didn't want to mention in polite company, is Sh*t....

 

rgmwa

 

 

[poteroo]

It seems there is agreement that practice makes perfect. But, that's not all..........

 

I've always thought of flying as the 3 dimensional parallel to golf. The more golf you play - the more consistent you become. However, if you want to increase your skills - then you need to be shown by someone who holds these skills. That may, or may not be, an instructor - but preferably a current instructor.

 

Instructors won't necessarily charge for their time. Many will help out as a safety pilot for a bit of practice, if they are clear of work committments. You just need to ask.

 

In a BFR, you should ask the instructor to list all of your weak skills, and then suggest exercises for you to practice these later on. Then, a few months later, have a short flight with the same instructor, and see how many of these you can have ticked off 'the list'. Be methodical.

 

happy days,

 

 

[M61A1]

Of course there is, but Gnu was asking about the one with all the S's. If fact the first S, which I didn't want to mention in polite company, is Sh*t....rgmwa

I don't use "S" for that.......I use "F**K, often more than once.

 

 

[Yenn]

Is it illegal for a certificated or licenced pilot to operate the right hand controls? I don't think so.

 

I believe it is also legal for a pilot to fly from the right hand seat. Havn't seen anyehere where the left seat is the only command seat and in helicopters of course the right hand seat is the normal command seat.

 

 

[facthunter]

You would have to be able to reach all the "necessary" controls. I have flown 2 different U/ls from thr RHS when testing in one case. The left seat suits the conventional left circuit, but there are still right circuits around. Why did this question come up? .Nev

 

 

[Neville75]

Great topic.

 

I found that by merely taking my loved ones along for a flight meant that I consciously strive for more accuracy with speeds, attitudes, lookout and generally flying more accurately. Since getting my ppl I've commenced cpl theory studies and a retractable / csu endorsement. For me, this helped me refresh the basics (air law/general knowledge) that might otherwise have gone rusty. As for training in a faster complex aircraft, having the man in the white shirt next to me has been reassuring too.

 

nev

 

 

[rgmwa]

I found that by merely taking my loved ones along for a flight meant that I consciously strive for more accuracy with speeds, attitudes, lookout and generally flying more accurately. nev

Very true. Before I got my licence, I was looking forward to regularly taking family members along for a ride. Now I think twice about it, and when I do take someone up, I'm very conscious that their lives are in my hands. They don't know how much can go wrong in a light aircraft, but by now I have a pretty good idea!

 

rgmwa

 

 

[turboplanner]

Is it illegal for a certificated or licenced pilot to operate the right hand controls? I don't think so.I believe it is also legal for a pilot to fly from the right hand seat. Havn't seen anyehere where the left seat is the only command seat and in helicopters of course the right hand seat is the normal command seat.

Sorry, I used "right seat" as a term for "Passenger", or someone other that Pilot In Command

 

Here's the regulation:

 

CAR 228 Unauthorised persons not to manipulate controls

 

(1) A person must not manipulate the controls of an aircraft in flight if the person is not either:

 

(a) the pilot assigned for duty in the aircraft; or

 

(b) a student pilot assigned for instruction in the aircraft

 

Penalty: 25 penalty units [about $2800.00]

 

(2) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability [which means you are prosecuted under the Crimes Act]

 

So you can't just have a mate check you out, it has to be a qualified and current Instructor, and there's good reason for this. The late Tony Hayes told me about a case where two guys fought each other at the controls during the final approach of an Ultralight, each thinking they had the solution to its problem, and finished up killing themselves instead of just having a rough landing.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Ok, just a bit of feedback for some of the above posts,

 

Firstly thanks Turbo, appreciate your support of the thread and it means a lot....

 

Potarero.... We have a better saying" practice makes permanent!" what you practice goes into long term behavior, and if it's correct that's good but if not it becomes a hard habit to break....

 

Yenn, To my knowledge unless the POH specifically says you must fly it left seat then either seat is OK. It feels weird when I get back in the left seat somedays!

 

Aircraft like my Sav are better flown left seat anyway because of the manual flaps, like an LSA 55 or 120 Jab. But other than POH, no law as far as I know says you can,t fly right seat.WORD OF WARNING though, make sure you re- adjust your straight line reference and sighting as it is very different first time, and remember that in std LH ccts your vis will be different and maybe restricted.

 

 

[Clansman]

Great question this. Try this for accuracy! Worth setting the scene first......midnight June 5th, 1944

 

I've just returned from the Normandy landing beaches and was particularly impressed by the story of the taking of Pegasus Bridge by the British gliderborne 6th Airborne Division. There are 2 little bridges here across 2 parallel channels of the Orne River which were paramount to the allies success on D-Day. Without these bridges the whole movement of material and troops from all the beaches would have been seriously compromised, and the landings would have been threatened by German movements from the east.

 

The Horsa gliders were 7 tonne wood/fabric carrying 28 troops (without parachutes) and 2 pilots. They were towed behind Halifax bombers, one glider per bomber. 6 gliders, 181 troops. They dropped the towlines 8 miles out from the Normandy coast so that the bombers could turn back to England to avoid engine noise over France.

 

The pilots knew their target from aerial photos and maps, but it was midnight remember. The gliders did a long downwind to the east and inland of target, a steep right base and final turn to aim for the field between the bridges. The first glider stopped 47 metres from the main bridge, gliders 2 and 3 stopped within a wingspan of the first glider! The 2 bridges were taken within 10 minutes. One of the German sentries had to be woken from his off-duty bed!

 

Glider 6 was towed 7 miles off course by its Halifax bomber and landed at another estuary which looked very similar, but the platoon still managed to walk cross country without casualties behind enemy lines to link up at Pegasus, finding another 50 parachute troopers scattered all over. Gliders 4 and 5 landed in the field near the first 2 but between the river channels.

 

The flying accuracy was described by Leigh Mallory and Eisenhower as the best flying feat of the entire war.

 

Makes my glide approaches in full daylight look positively sick! Anyway practice makes perfect!

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

That's all for a forced landing? What about the Mayday call etc?

Still catching up on replies Tubs, sorry, restart checks, Mayday procedures and make safe checks are all in addition to the selection criteria, aviate first, no point trying to restart the thing etc if you are already dead!! FTPF--- FlyThe Plane First, or the forceful version.... FTFP. I'll let everyone work that one out!!

 

 

[av8vfr]

, or the forceful version.... FTFP. I'll let everyone work that one out!!

Neil, is that:

 

First Time For Parachutes?

 

Follow The Failed Prop?

 

or

 

Feel The Force, People?

 

Matt

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Neil, is that:First Time For Parachutes?

Follow The Failed Prop?

 

or

 

Feel The Force, People?

 

Matt

LOL. !! Very creative young Matt- see you tomorrow mate and I'll share then....cheers

 

 

[Mick]

Yenn, To my knowledge unless the POH specifically says you must fly it left seat then either seat is OK. It feels weird when I get back in the left seat somedays!

Aircraft like my Sav are better flown left seat anyway because of the manual flaps, like an LSA 55 or 120 Jab. But other than POH, no law as far as I know says you can,t fly right seat.

This topic of flying from the right seat was raised with the RAAus operations manager some time ago. In response there was mention of this in the ops managers column in the magazine clearly stating that only current instructors are permitted to fly from the right seat. I queried this as at the time I was doing demo flights for aircraft sales and wanted to fly from the right so I could put the potential buyer in the left seat where they would feel more comfortable. I had spent time with my instructor getting proficient in the right seat, but RAAus still said NO.

 

 

[Mick]

Size

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Surface

 

Surrounds

 

Situation

 

rgmwa

I was taught a sixth "S" - Sivilisation - is there a farmhouse nearby where you will be able to bludge a cold beer to congratulate yourself on a successful forced landng!

 

 

[rgmwa]

I was taught a sixth "S" - Sivilisation - is there a farmhouse nearby where you will be able to bludge a cold beer to congratulate yourself on a successful forced landng!

Number 5 covers that one, but Sivilisation is good too.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[facthunter]

Mick, I suppose they can say NO. I have only done it as a current instructor ( At the time). On the basis that we (The RAAus don't as a principle apply restrictions more severe that does CASA). You might request a review of that decision. It would require an element of proficiency but no more than with some Piper Cubs where the earlier ones are flown from the rear seat and the later ones are done from the front one. In fact my experience is that people who have not flown from the rear seat in those type of aircraft take a fair while to get proficient at it. Maybe your aircraft doesn't allow solo flight from the RHS. It would specifically have to say that. IMOP.Nev

 

 

[Mick]

Nev, this was not an issue with the aircraft, all controls are accessable from the right seat. The aircraft has been used for flying training in the USA and Europe. Proficiency was not the issue, my instructor had spent enough time with me to be happy to sign me off as in command from the right seat knowing that this was for doing demo flights. I did actually do several hours solo from the right seat and started doing demo flights from the right.

 

I was not the one who prompted the mention in the ops managers article in the magazine, but after reading it I contacted the ops manager and queried it. I explained my reason for wanting to fly from the right and that I had spent the time with my instructor. The answer I was told was still no, only a current instructor is permitted to do it.

 

I stopped doing it at that point and no longer have the need to do it - don't do the sales thing anymore.

 

 

[facthunter]

Doing demo flights is a legitimate thing, for people selling aircraft on a regular basis, and even if you don't have the need now, My view is that it must be available for that situation. You can't have it reasonably any other way. Change the rule RAAus. Get your rep to address it. Nev

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

This topic of flying from the right seat was raised with the RAAus operations manager some time ago. In response there was mention of this in the ops managers column in the magazine clearly stating that only current instructors are permitted to fly from the right seat. I queried this as at the time I was doing demo flights for aircraft sales and wanted to fly from the right so I could put the potential buyer in the left seat where they would feel more comfortable. I had spent time with my instructor getting proficient in the right seat, but RAAus still said NO.

Just thinking out loud, perhaps the issue was that demoing of the aircraft represented an intention for commercial gain, thereby requiring such operation to be performed by a qualified instructor?

 

I wonder if the question was to simply fly the aircraft from the right seat with no one else and there was no express POH requirement if the answer would have been different?

 

 

[Mick]

No issue with not being an instructor to do demo flights for aircraft sales. A few of the most sucessful agents in Oz are not instructors. The issue was only flying from the right seat.

 

Aircraft sales & demo flights do represent a grey area with regard to being a commercial operation. I guess it could be interpeted that there is no commercial gain from the actual flight, the gain comes from the sale. It would be a whole lot different if one was to charge for the demo flight. I did have alot of people offer to pay costs form their demo flights, never accepted it though, I just considered this part of the cost of doing business no different to paying for advertising.

 

 

[turboplanner]

No issue with not being an instructor to do demo flights for aircraft sales.

Go back and check the CAR in the earlier post.