What grade of oil to use in a Jabiru J170?

[Eric McCandless]

The oil cover sticker on my J170 says to use Aeroshell W100 in summer and 15W50 in winter.

 

The JEM2204-10 Instruction And Maintenance Manual For Jabiru 2200 Aircraft Engine, at section 3.2 says to use Aero Oil W Multigrade 15W-50, or equivalent.

 

Section 3.5.2 says to use W100 for temps 15°C to 35°C and W80 for -17°C to 25°C.

 

Section 8 says “Use 2.2 litres of W100 oil for normal operation or W80 oil for cold weather operation. Shell also manufacture a multigrade oil Aeroshell 15W50 which is particularly suited for operations in cold climates.”

 

My aircraft is located at Goulburn which gets cold in winter (0 degrees) but also hot in summer (30 degrees).

 

Any advice on whether I should use two different oils for summer/winter, or can I use one type only (W100 or 15W50) ?

 

 

[facthunter]

My recollection was they settled on the multigrade. Before that they differentiated by temp. Think some parts still show the older recommendations. It's not a critical thing. If you had some of the older oils I would use them up, rather than not use them, but still use the thicker one in summer, or the multigrade all year. Nev

 

 

[old man emu]

Run your engine on Shell 15W50. You might think Goulburn is cold in winter, but these temperatures mainly only affect your battery.

 

OME

 

 

[brilin_air]

Eric,

 

OME is correct.

 

15W-50 only.

 

Brian.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Given the number of mechanical failures, is there some problem with actually contacting the manufacturer with the application for your aircraft, and getting the manufacturer's professional advice?

 

If I said I use peanut oil and had never had a problem, would you put peanut oil in a Jab, just because it was posted here.

 

Now that I think about it, I've probably seen hundreds of engines fail to reach their life cycle in the Transport and Construction Industries because someone took advice from a person he met at the pub, or enjoyed being taken out to golf by the local oil agent who'd say something like "They're all the same mate, but ours will save you money". The record was $47,000.00 damage on a Cat D7......which certainly educated the owner into a new policy of phoning up Cat Service and giving them the map reference of wherever his dozer is.

 

The variety of information in post #1 would indicate to me that this engine is very oil sensitive.

 

Only the engine designer knows where he achieved less than optimum oil gallery performance or face to face pressure, due to many reasons which might include manufacturing difficulties due to casting dimensions etc.

 

His problems can usually be solved by some special action with lubricants, and the lubricant/procedure is always supplied to the customer. If the customer follows that advice, a normal life cycle will result.

 

There's a 4WD diesel engine out there right now where the oil galleries had to be made small, and that turned out to be too small, causing premature turbo failures, and that was resolved by specifying a special synthetic oil blend (priced at about the same as gold, ounce for ounce), and 5,000 oil change intervals. Follow that and you should get over 300,000 km out of the engine. Don't follow it and you'll have a shiny new 4WD in the workshop and turbo bits all over the floor.

 

Statements such as "We use brand X, Grade Y oil in our Jab and haven't had a single problem", when the engine is only at 5% of the life cycle have absolutely no credibility in terms of sound test procedures, and the people who peddle that garbage never come out and give you $16,000 to rebuild and engine when their advice is found to be rubbish.

 

I would have thought it would be extremely frustrating for the service people at Jabiru to read a thread like this............or do people contact them and get no clarification to situations like post #1.

 

 

[jetjr]

TP I think the issue is that the many manuals and stickers seem to contradict themselves and all the oil options presented are valid and recommened by Jabiru. Old spec say W100 and W80, newer multigrades have proven good over time and are now the norm

 

Very cold conditions - like snow and ice all the time - W80

 

Winter 15W 50

 

Summer can use W100 (old standard) but 15W 50 works fine

 

In winter W100 is also OK but takes forever to warm up. Ive found it does handle hot summer temps a bit better and its cheaper. I use 15W 50 most of the time and it would be best choice for your environment but as TP says you really should ask Jabiru

 

 

[facthunter]

I thought I was quoting jabiru. Always use the makers recommendations, but they changed to the multigrade. Not all the placards reflect this. Perhaps there should be an advisory to change them . Every Jab owner should refer to the Jab site. It's easy to do. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

TP I think the issue is that the many manuals and stickers seem to contradict themselves and all the oil options presented are valid and recommened by Jabiru. Old spec say W100 and W80, newer multigrades have proven good over time and are now the normVery cold conditions - like snow and ice all the time - W80

 

Winter 15W 50

 

Summer can use W100 (old standard) but 15W 50 works fine

 

In winter W100 is also OK but takes forever to warm up. Ive found it does handle hot summer temps a bit better and its cheaper. I use 15W 50 most of the time and it would be best choice for your environment but as TP says you really should ask Jabiru

That's really my point - all these oils have different performance standards, so you need to analyse your application, then contact Jabiru direct and get their recommendation.

 

That way you are getting a specific oil performance for YOUR application, not something secondhand.

 

Examples of how this works are:

 

There are certain tyre compounds made specifically for areas of Australia with certain types of abrasive road surfaces

 

Truck drivelines are different for the Pacific Highway from Sydney to Brisbane than Sydney to Melbourne

 

 

[Thirsty]

I rang Jabiru about this as well and when I told Mark (who seems quite knowledgeable) in the engine shop that I use W100 he said that's fine. Most others I know who run jabs use the Multigrade and I'll probably switch to it as well at some stage.

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

Methinks we're all on the same page here, but looking at it from different angles... Bottom line? Read, and then do what the manual says... However, when the manual has conflicting/confusing info as Eric pointed out in post #1, go to the man who wrote the manual and ask him to clarify. It usually works. For better or worse, the fact remains that the people at Jabiru know more about their engine than most of us can ever hope too.

 

Having said that, my Dad used to tell an interesting story about the RB211 engines Cathay had in their L1011s back in the '70s. Cathay was having to change engines with about the regularity of an engineer changing his underpants, while JAL were getting tremendous results from the RB211s they had in their L1011s. It turned out the Japanese had drilled out the oil galleries in their engines to accomodate the Mobil Jet Oil II that they, and Cathay, were using in their engines. As you might imagine, Cathay got a tad beady about the oil galleries being too small, and there was some serious desk thumping going on. But Rolls Royce's answer was that the RB211 oil galleries had been designed to accomodate Castrol oil, not Mobil. Go figure! "It may be rubbish Old Chap, but at least it's British rubbish..."

 

 

[facthunter]

The oil temp you run at is more important than ambient. You should try to get it to about 85c as a max in normal ops.If you get somewhere with a thicker oil in , and you get a frost you have to epend more time warming it up, as you may get cavitation due loss of sufficient oil flow on the suck side of the pump.. I spent 20 minutes on the ground at Corryong before I would do a mag check, last time.

 

Some people have a bit of an aversion to multigrades and confuse them with detergent and other things. Most people have gone over to them.

 

The latest mineral oils have corrosion inhibiting additives, mainly for Lycoming camshafts, but do no harm in any motor that uses the standard oils.

 

Rotax use different oils, because of the drive clutch and gears. nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Wayne, that's precisely what I was getting at - you need to find out the why, preferably from the person who designed the machinery.

 

Thirsty, you confuse me. First you say you did get advice from the source, but then suggest you're going to go with an oil other people are using - people who possibly don't have any test facilities, don't have the drawings, don't have the design amendment details, and don't have the metallurgy test results.

 

There are products which are so over designed, that this wouldn't matter, but when you read other threads on this site, two and two start to look awfully like four.

 

 

[Thirsty]

TP I think if I asked two people at Jabiru then I'd get two different answers. I use the W100 because I have a good cheap supply of it. If the Multigrade is the way to go (and I'd get confirmation from Jab first) then I'll probably change. I just want to use what's best for my engine.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yea, unfortunately you will get different answers at times, nothing is easy, then you have to seek out the one with the best knowledge. I just recently checked out some quotes for trucks and out of the 15 quoted, none were legal.

 

 

[old man emu]

Well, Bugger me. I answered Eric's question based on the knowledge I gained working in a CASA approved workshop which maintains several Jabirus and other aircraft with Jabiru engines. OH, and I'm the bloke who has to go and buy the boxes of oil from the suppliers. So, based on that, I guess my post is just so much crap. Onya Turboplanner. As a dyed in the wool Jab hater, I guess you know it all.

 

OME

 

 

[Eric McCandless]

Thanks everyone. There is a lot of good advice here and I'm sorry if I have caused any angst. I didn't think to ring Jabiru, as I thought that Jabiru had provided all their current data in the manuals I have downloaded from their site. I would not think Jabiru would take too kindly to answering phone calls from people when they have already published their best advice on their web site. I would assume they would get sick of that.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well, Bugger me. I answered Eric's question based on the knowledge I gained working in a CASA approved workshop which maintains several Jabirus and other aircraft with Jabiru engines. OH, and I'm the bloke who has to go and buy the boxes of oil from the suppliers. So, based on that, I guess my post is just so much crap. Onya Turboplanner. As a dyed in the wool Jab hater, I guess you know it all.OME

Well if you're suggesting you can speak on behalf of the people who design and build the product I agree with you.

 

If you read my posts you'll see I'm on the side of Jabiru here - it's manufacturers who decide oil specifications, not servicers.

 

 

[Thirsty]

Eric Jabiru don't mind at all if you call. Just ring and ask for someone in the engine area.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Thanks everyone. There is a lot of good advice here and I'm sorry if I have caused any angst. I didn't think to ring Jabiru, as I thought that Jabiru had provided all their current data in the manuals I have downloaded from their site. I would not think Jabiru would take too kindly to answering phone calls from people when they have already published their best advice on their web site. I would assume they would get sick of that.

Put yourself in their shoes. If not using the right oil for the application is going to cost you thousands of dollars in a warranty argument over a failed engine, wouldn't you prefer to spend a little time on a phone call. I worked alongside a car manufacturer's service team for about five years and they took probably 200 calls a day, which was cheap insurance. They also travelled constantly round the Dealer network giving talks to customers at evening functions.

 

 

[Dieselten]

I use W100 in my hydraulic-lifter 2200 and change it every 25 hours. Filters get changed every 50 hours, cut open and inspected.

 

According to the Lycoming engine folks, the best thing you can do to keep your engine running well is use it often and change the oil every 25 hours or every three months, whichever comes first. The same should apply to Jab engines. Oil is cheap.

 

Re the 15W50:- this has an additive package and there is concern about the additives wearing out in 50 hours in Jab engines due to the relatively low volume of oil they contain. This is a very good oil, but if you are concerned about the additives wearing out, changing it every 25 hours won't do you or your engine any harm.

 

Jabiru specify either of the above. The W100+ oil (also with an additive package) works just as well. I stick with the W100 due to the 25 hours oil-change interval. Running on Avgas, you can see the grey sheen in the oil due to finely-divided lead oxide, even after 25 hours. If you run a good grade of mogas (98-octane premium unleaded with no alcohol added) the 50 hour oil-change interval will probably work well for you as it produces fewer abrasive deposits than Avgas. If it weren't for the carb-ice issues, I'd run nothing but 98-octane premium unleaded.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Different subject Diesel what you're talking about is related to the life cycle of an oil and is all good if you want to compare different oils in the same machine, but preferably putting the engine or machine on Oil Analysis with one of the oil companies. A lot of truck fleets do that, and it's then possible to stretch the oil changes out further based on a change before the oil breaks down.

 

Specifying viscosity relates to the amount of performance of an oil at different operating temperatures.

 

15W 50 and W100 cover a huge variation. - you can visualise the percentage differences by comparing a 15 mm wire rope, 50 mm wire rope and 100 mm wire rope - you wouldn't specify 15 mm if the application required 100 mm, and you wouldn't specify 100 mm if the application only needed 15 mm.

 

Jabiru might say both oils can be used, but I'd be very surprised if they didn't also spell out where you would use the W100 and where you would use the 15W50.

 

 

[Dieselten]

Jabiru don't specify when to use 15W50 and W100, they offer the option of the multigrade for operators in colder climates operating within a certain temperature range. The operator makes the decision based on Jabiru's recommendation and their own operational experience. Jabiru do specify an ashless-dispersant aero-oil, following the use of a non-compounded 100W mineral oil for the break-in period. That's all they specify.

 

There has been some "folklore" to the effect the multigrade performs better in hydraulic-lifter equipped engines. My feeling is if the W100 is changed at 25 hours then sludging will be minimised and lifter troubles should not arise. For those who counter with arguments about viscosity at start-up, this is academic as the engine is not under heavy load during starting and warm-up. Whilst on the subject of viscosity in extremely cold environments, the need to pre-warm the engine and engine-bay area is not to be overlooked. (Canada, Alaska etc in winter.) No engine will start if the oil and other lubricants are frozen solid.

 

The requirement to pull the engine through several times before the first start of every day should be adhered to as it greatly assists re-distribution of pooled oil at the bottom of the cylinder to rings and other moving-surfaces prior to engine-start, and greatly reduces the engine "making metal". (I have seen the little curled shavings from Lycomings resulting from starting after sitting for extended periods of time without pulling the engine through)

 

I both acknowledge and appreciate the point about 15W50 and W100 covering a wide variation in viscosities. I simply chose to use one oil and one oil grade only and to change it more frequently than the factory says it must be changed basically because I am using (by necessity) a fuel which produces a more "abrasive" set of combustion residues which find their way into the oil. I change the oil before it has reached the end of its life-cycle as a lubricant, and hope to maximise the life of my engine (a consumable product with a finite lifetime) by so doing.

 

So, the W100 or the 15W50? You have to make a choice. Mine is already made.

 

 

[Vev]

Hi D10,

 

I could't agree more with your view on high frequency lube change ... this approach will cover a multitude of sins and is a great insurance policy.

 

I am still in the camp that multigrades do help reduce wear at start up, albeit small in the context of Aust temperature environment... additionally there are other benefits offered in terms of better lubrication from a multigrade that I would pick over a mono-grade these days... like you that's my choice too.

 

I am completely aligned with your rationale that soot and contaminate related wear is by far and away the biggest problem and does have a lot to do (but not all) with, as you indicated, with the quality and technology of the fuel used... again, early and frequent oil and filter change is a cheap and good thing to do and I like the 25hr approach.

 

Cheers

 

Vev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Jabiru don't specify when to use 15W50 and W100, they offer the option of the multigrade for operators in colder climates operating within a certain temperature range.

Those are the key words relating to Application. Application is a term for where you are operating equipment and what you are doing with it, so an Application may include operation in a hot climate, or it may include operation in a very dusty environment, or it may include operation in a very salty environment etc.

 

The higher the viscosity of an oil the less the flow, splash, drip and capillary action at low temperatures. Squeezing high viscosity oil through the oil galleries on a cold morning is very hard on the pump and in some cases will cause a pump shaft to shear. The reduced dripping and capillary action during cold starts (and Eric's post above lists the operating range for 100W at 15 degrees or above) will starve areas like main bearings, big ends, rocker bearings and valve guides, and the hottest valve guide is the exhaust valve.

 

Oil manufacturers introduced multigrade oil to cater for this excess wear during the cold phase of the engine's operation. So 15W50 operates at a viscosity of 15 when the engine starts, and thickens to 50 when it reaches normal operating temperature.

 

When an engine gets hotter, clearances open up, and oil can leak past some of these surfaces excessively, lowering oil pressure (since the oil pump has a finite capacity matched to expected operating conditions). Each viscosity grade has an upper temperature limit beyond which it will break down to the point where it cannot to separate the wearing surfaces from each other, and again the hottest of these is the exhaust valve stem.

 

So therefore, if a manufacturer quotes two different viscosity levels of oil your Application is a critical part of the decision on which one to use.

 

The engine manufacturer has the records on his test results, the warranty claims coming into his service department, and the repair orders coming in to his dealers - good hard evidence to know which oil to recommend to a customer who provides correct Application information.

 

There's no problem at all with deciding to change oil earlier than the manufacturer's recommended intervals, but it can be expensive depending on the oil cost. In the example of a certain 4x4 I gave earlier, changing at 25 hours would cost $7,200.00 by the end of 200, 000 km.

 

Oil Analysis is an alternative to this, since this shows when the oil is starting to break down and need replacement, rather than just being discoloured.

 

This is a link to one of the Shell programs: http://www-static.shell.com/static/aus/downloads/lubricants/pri/shell_lubeanalyst_brochure.pdf

 

 

[jetjr]

Why dont many use this analysis on Aero engines? Does Shell have the skills to tell us what results mean in the aero type engines?

 

I guess they do as they are happy to sell us the oil.

 

How can it be arranged and whats cost?

 

I know its been used with success in Ag, heavy transport and mining but often in attempts to extend service intervals.