ERSA & Maps

[davebutler]

Having recently splashed out at our local aviation emporium again for the latest ERSA & maps I got to thinking ( Yep I know it can be dangerous)"Is it really necessary to purchase a new ERSA & maps every time they expire". I know the rules and regs say so but, I have never checked, but are there always changes on the maps? They nearly always look the same, surely if the are no changes we can continue to use the old map. As for the ERSA can they not just have an update system where you purchase only the amendments and replace those pages?? If I remember correctly the Jepp charts and other similar publications I used when flying overseas worked this way.

 

Hell the Greenies would love us, think of all the rain forests we would be saving!!

 

On a more serious note, I am led to believe you can carry your ERSA in electronic format now. Is this so and if so, where can I find the ruling from CASA please?

 

Thanks

 

Dave B.

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

"On a more serious note, I am led to believe you can carry your ERSA in electronic format now. Is this so and if so, where can I find the ruling from CASA please?"

 

Yes me too Dave...

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

I know when I started flying in 1997 you could buy an amendment loose leaf ERSA that you had to update. Im not currently flying so dont have the current documents to know if its is still available in that format.

 

Scotty

 

 

[biggles]

" On a more serious note, I am led to believe you can carry your ERSA in electronic format now. Is this so and if so, where can I find the ruling from CASA please? "

 

Dave , I don't think you will find anything in writing at this stage .I believe that a ' working party ' is currently looking into all aspects of EFB's . However as we are required to carry ' current charts , ersa etc " the electronic versions are being accepted at this present time .

 

Bob

 

 

[Thirsty]

However as we are required to carry ' current charts , ersa etc " the electronic versions are being accepted at this present time

Hey Bob, is this written down anywhere? I'm asked all the time about this and I am telling people to carry the paper copies 'cause I've not seen it written that we can use electronic versions.

 

 

[biggles]

Hey Bob, is this written down anywhere? I'm asked all the time about this and I am telling people to carry the paper copies 'cause I've not seen it written that we can use electronic versions.

G'Day Thirsty ,

 

You are correct to advise people to "carry the paper copies " , they should also be the 'current 'editions . At this stage CASA appear not to have a definitive position on this , and people using OzRunways , or similar are considered to conform with the requirements , in that they have a "current "version , notwithstanding the fact that it is an "electronic" version. I personally still carry paper charts etc. as a back up , in case Murphy decides to visit but many will have become recently outdated .I discussed this with a CASA at Temora in April and they appear to have a realistic attitude toward EFB's and hope to have the results of the working party soon .

 

 

[djpacro]

It is in writing (one hopes that one day, in the fullness of time that it will be clear as in the draft new reg Part 91). Check Reg 233 (1) (h) on the required documents to carry (reg 139 for other documents to be carried too). Check the official government definition of "document".

 

Check the CASA rules on Electronic Flight Bags to see whether they apply to your situation.

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/airworth/awb/00/017.pdf

 

Note this reqt:

 

CAR 2 – Interpretation, aircraft component means:(a) any part or equipment for an aircraft that, when fitted to, or provided in an aircraft may, if it is not sound or functioning correctly, affect the safety of the aircraft, its occupants or its cargo or cause the aircraft to become a danger to person or property.

So, for my day VFR airplane with NIL navaids, my iStuff is not captured by this rule - I am not using any of the software for flying ops so not an EFB, simply carrying an electronic ERSA - my opinion supported by discussion with a CASA Safety Officer.

[biggles]

G'Day Thirsty ,You are correct to advise people to "carry the paper copies " , they should also be the 'current 'editions . At this stage CASA appear not to have a definitive position on this , and people using OzRunways , or similar are considered to conform with the requirements , in that they have a "current "version , notwithstanding the fact that it is an "electronic" version. I personally still carry paper charts etc. as a back up , in case Murphy decides to visit but many will have become recently outdated .I discussed this with a CASA at Temora in April and they appear to have a realistic attitude toward EFB's and hope to have the results of the working party soon .

This sensitive IPad keyboard again caused an unfinished post to go yet again !! . I wanted to finish by saying that individuals need to make their own decisions as to what legally conforms and this post should only be considered as my interpretion of the current situation.

 

Bob

 

 

[kaz3g]

Hey Bob, is this written down anywhere? I'm asked all the time about this and I am telling people to carry the paper copies 'cause I've not seen it written that we can use electronic versions.

Wise move, I think. I have just emailed Mal Read at CASA who is running Project OS 11/30 to ask him for an update but my understanding is that EFB's, especially those at the lower end like iPad are still some way off being approved <edit> at least for navigation purposes.

 

I'm trying to understand what CASA is saying in the link provided by DJP but it seems there are two complications:

 

1. You can't use the device for non-flying purposes; and

 

2. You can use charts, ERSA and other non-manipulative software but not flight planning or nav stuff.

 

It would be good to get a definitive, I think.

 

kaz

 

kaz

 

 

[djpacro]

News this morning:

 

Qantas pilots turn to iPads in a move designed to improve communication

[68volksy]

I've been informed by several at CASA that the requirement to carry paper copies is still very much the situation. The Attorney General recently provided them with guidance on this matter. Electronic versions of data will not be acceptable as they cannot accept them as being accurate. (all they have to certify their accuracy and integrity is the word of the businessmen who are selling them at the moment). They are looking to perhaps provide some sort of licensing process to these guys but it's a long way off yet.

 

The ERSA is a lot easier to certify in theory - there's no manipulation of the data if all you've got is a pdf or something such as that.

 

I'd imagine that showing an iPad with a flat battery/frozen/broken on a ramp check would not go any way to proving you had the maps or ERSA though in the same manner as losing the paper copy out the window would not prove you had a copy on you. That's the common sense approach that i'm adopting.

 

Edit - easiest way of keeping up to date is maintaining a relationship with a flying school or good Aero Club. Never had to worry about any of this stuff - always borrowing one of the schools copies! Those portable EPIRBS are brilliant also!

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

This sensitive IPad keyboard again caused an unfinished post to go yet again !! . I wanted to finish by saying that individuals need to make their own decisions as to what legally conforms and this post should only be considered as my interpretion of the current situation. Bob

That has happened to me as well, biggles. Then someone pointed out the "edit" function.

 

 

[djpacro]

?..The Attorney General recently provided them with guidance on this ..!

sums up exactly what is wrong with aviation in this country.CASA needs to have a look at some of the charts produced by AirServices recently and take action against the incompetence there. I look forward to being ramp checked and comparing my electronic ERSA with my paper VNC.

 

 

[Piet Fil]

Dave,

 

There are annual AIP Sups which state what edition of charts are current and provides the updates that should be pen ammended onto them (eg: for WACs its currently H74/11).

 

I carry the AIP Sup and as part of my flight planning I review it for any changes applicable to the chart which I am using, If there are any changes within 50nm of my flight plan (including alternates/diversions) I then pen amend the change onto the chart. In my view this is adequate as otherwise you would be forever updating charts (Navy ships have a Nav Yeoman whose job is to ensure all charts are updated in a similar fashion)

 

Hope this helps

 

Phil

 

 

[djpacro]

The manuscript amendments in AIP only apply to WACs. Error in VNC corrected via NOTAM.

 

 

[kaz3g]

You make a very good point, DJP. I wonder if ASA intends to replace the erroneous Denny VNC at no cost?

 

Should be a "fit for purpose" argument under Trade Practices available here.

 

Kaz

 

 

[brilin_air]

This sensitive IPad keyboard again caused an unfinished post to go yet again !! . I wanted to finish by saying that individuals need to make their own decisions as to what legally conforms and this post should only be considered as my interpretion of the current situation.Bob

Learn how to use it properly Bob!!!!

 

-Linda

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Learn how to use it properly Bob!!!! -Linda

... Use the Edit, Luke, ......

 

 

[biggles]

OK you two smarties ( B_A & OK ) You might be interested to know that I have read all there is to know about the Edit function , and never understood a word . Maybe one of you should come down here ( mates rates of course ) and give me some personal tuition . Better be quick though , have just finished the 300 hourly on the Jab , and this cold weather is causing our thoughts to drift Northward again !!

 

Bob

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

OK you two smarties ( B_A & OK ) You might be interested to know that I have read all there is to know about the Edit function , and never understood a word . Maybe one of you should come down here ( mates rates of course ) and give me some personal tuition . Better be quick though , have just finished the 300 hourly on the Jab , and this cold weather is causing our thoughts to drift Northward again !! Bob

All right Biggles, follow these directions:

Look at any one of your posts. You, and only you, can see below it an options called Edit.

 

Click that and your epistle will appear in a box ready for you to add, delete, correct, etc to your heart's content.

 

It took me ages to twig to this, and since then I often use it to satisfy my OCDisorder until it looks right.

 

 

[kaz3g]

OK you two smarties ( B_A & OK ) You might be interested to know that I have read all there is to know about the Edit function , and never understood a word . Maybe one of you should come down here ( mates rates of course ) and give me some personal tuition . Better be quick though , have just finished the 300 hourly on the Jab , and this cold weather is causing our thoughts to drift Northward again !! Bob

Hey Bob

 

Thought you were in the riviera of the south? The fog here Friday morning was so thick I couldn't see 50'. And cold......!

 

Kaz

 

 

[Ryanm]

Changes to WACs http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/sup/s11-h74.pdf

 

Changes to the others http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/sup/a12-h09.pdf

 

 

[djpacro]

Good stuff Ryan however note that the second one may not include changes advised by NOTAMS etc so is not definitive - and it does not include the errors that I have seen fixed by NOTAM.

 

It lists changes incorporated in the new charts - it doesn't tell you of manuscript changes as you get for WACs.

 

 

[pj8768]

Updated maps?

 

How long does it take for a decommisioned or overgrown ALA to disappear from a map - Boorowa, Greenthorpe on Sydney VNC, Tralee on Canberra VTC? - I'm sure there's more

 

 

[Ryanm]

Ah yeah forgot about the NOTAM changes. Next time you look an at an Area Forecast, check the box marked "head office NOTAMS" which will include them.

 

It can be a very slow process, it can take several cycles before a change to an aerodrome shows up in ERSA. Having said that, it looks like Geelong has been removed from the charts (According to the AIC)