ERSA & Maps

[68volksy]

sums up exactly what is wrong with aviation in this country.CASA needs to have a look at some of the charts produced by AirServices recently and take action against the incompetence there. I look forward to being ramp checked and comparing my electronic ERSA with my paper VNC.

Best possible illustration of my point. If an organisation the size of Airservices with the number of staff they have and the decades of experience and knowledge can still make little mistakes how much faith can you really put in a couple of IT guys out to make a dollar with the electronic stuff? Forgive me for bringing the cold art of logic into these discussions.

 

 

[djpacro]

My logic is that a small business which depends on satisfying its customers to survive is more likely to get it right than a horde of bureaucrats in a monopoly quango. If there was a whiff of these guys introducing errors anywhere near the significance of the current errors on that VNC their business would fizzle out very quickly.

 

It might be interesting to have a little poll in a separate thread (so no-one has guidance from here) to list half a dozen places on that VNC and ask people what the radio frequency is for each.

 

 

[biggles]

Hey BobThought you were in the riviera of the south? The fog here Friday morning was so thick I couldn't see 50'. And cold......!

 

Kaz

G'Day Kaz ,

 

Yes, this is the " Victorian Riviera " but coming back from Farri's Country it takes a bit of getting used to . It seems that the older I get , the longer it takes for me to acclimatize . I know that it's a problem with me , because I see people half my age walking around with next to nothing on . Ideally I should spend June to September in Qld. but for some reason ,these days I seem to delight in just whingeing about it . Anyway back to your part of the world , A few weeks ago I was trying to make my way back here via the Melbourne Inland Route , it was the day the pilot landed the C172 on the yet to be opened Peninsular Freeway . We had left Yarrawonga with the Kilmore Gap AWS advising - " clear below 12000 " etc." As we approached Kilmore I could see that there was no way we could get below the 2500 step due to the thick blanket of fog . I was talking to Mel Centre and overheard a transmission from an aircraft near Moorabbin to Centre saying - " tell that guy in the Jabiru to turn back " I had already made the decision to return to Mangalore . Anyway , we spent a pleasant night with a couple from Seymour we met at Longreach .

 

Bob

 

 

[farri]

I was talking to Mel Centre and overheard a transmission from an aircraft near Moorabbin to Centre saying - " tell that guy in the Jabiru to turn back " . Bob

Crikies Bob! What would you do without guys like this and the one in Townsville?

 

Frank.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It was nothing to do with the fog, he just realised it was a Queenslander about to come through the gap in the wall.

 

 

[biggles]

Crikies Bob! What would you do without guys like this and the one in Townsville? Frank.

We won't talk about the one in Townsville Frank !!

 

 

[biggles]

It was nothing to do with the fog, he just realised it was a Queenslander about to come through the gap in the wall.

Be nice T.P. I'm from about as far South as you can get !!

 

 

[kaz3g]

Right from the horse's mouth, so to speak (if you understand horse talk)

 

kaz

 

UNCLASSIFIED

 

Hi Karen

 

Thank you for your email.

 

It appears from your enquiry that you are referring to the use of EFBs by other than pilots in the employ of an Air Operator Certificate Holder, therefore, I will restrict my comments to the use of EFBs by private pilots.

 

As with your experience in the use of an EFB, CASA acknowledges that the new technology is very capable and provides ease of use. CASA will shortly publish a Civil Aviation Advisory Publication (CAAP) providing guidance for pilots who use an EFB (tablet or similar) when flying. For private operations, the guidance is outcome based and it means that users need to manage for themselves the known risks. You provide a good example, having paper, and more than one piece of hardware as a backup. Should your Ipad malfunction (common problem is shutdown from overheat) or the battery go flat, you have an alternate means to ensure that you can navigate with certainty, and therefore, the flight can continue safely.

 

By publishing the guidance in the CAAP and following it, it is CASA’s intent that all EFB users can take advantage of the benefits of the technology, whilst ensuring that the shortcomings are realised and managed.

 

Please feel free to call me anytime to discuss.

 

Best regards

 

 

Mal Read

 

Standards Officer – Large Aeroplanes Flight Operations & Licensing StandardsStandards Development Civil Aviation Safety Authority - AustraliaPhone|(02) 6217 1072 or 131 757

 

Mobile | 0409 829 895 Fax | (02) 6217 1691www.casa.gov.au

 

 

[djpacro]

Thanks kaz. I've seen some sensible email responses from CASA in Canberra to individuals in recent times.

 

 

[coljones]

part of the question is "is the information I have from an AUTHORITATIVE SOURCE?" This is the additional question one should ask beyond the reliability of a smartphone (which are manufactured to a domestic standard where there is NO warranty about availabilities nor data loss). Having bits of ERSA on line is good as I can just take the bits I need (on paper) and maybe download the PDF to a smartish phone or laptop.

 

 

[68volksy]

My logic is that a small business which depends on satisfying its customers to survive is more likely to get it right than a horde of bureaucrats in a monopoly quango. If there was a whiff of these guys introducing errors anywhere near the significance of the current errors on that VNC their business would fizzle out very quickly.It might be interesting to have a little poll in a separate thread (so no-one has guidance from here) to list half a dozen places on that VNC and ask people what the radio frequency is for each.

I think we're witnessing Australia's passion for rooting for the underdog... Whilst it's every small business owners intention to do things properly I can safely say their are many things never get done as well as they should. That's what marketing is for! It's curious to me that people selling the electronic stuff are bagging out Airservices - its not like they have any option or millions of dollars to go and develop their own maps! They're stuck using the Airservices data - they should be helping Airservices make it better rather than attacking them for minor errors.

 

I know a few of the guys at airservices and i've met a few of the guys selling the programs for iPads and the like. I'll be trusting the Airservices guys over the guys in it for a dollar anyday.

 

Sensible solution to all of this is going to be as referred to above in the email from CASA - they'll let you carry electronic versions of things so long as you have a paper backup (or some other form of backup).

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I think its all a moot point to be honest.....Anything that is likely to be acceptable in the future as an EFB such as the iPad apps is all based on airservices maps anyway. If its wrong in the paper version I cant see why it wouldnt be wrong in the electronice version. Even if the guys with the app know its wrong to me they cant update until its an advised update and at that point pressumably the paper version is hand ammended as well.........

 

I cant ever imagine a time when CASA say, if youve got an EFB then source your maping date from where ever you want, if you want paper then ASA will continue to provide them....... like QNH when it comes to mapping all need to be working from the same page, even if it has a few errors on it, rather than each having a different primary source.

 

 

[djpacro]

Interesting draft CAOs and CAAP on the CASA website for comment. http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_101049

 

There are some even more interesting statements contained in the NPRM and draft CAAP which are true right now:

 

Currently, CASA does not legislate for the use of EFBs.

If you have an EFB Class 3 it is important to note

 

This CAAP does not provide guidance on integrated EFB Class 3 devices as defined later in this document. For this class of equipment the manufacturer’s approved data is to be used as the basis for operational procedures and maintenance practices.

but otherwise

The CAAP will also provide general guidance for private operators.

which includes info on the current rules for engineering approvals for installations, power connections etc.i.e. the new rules only apply to commercial operations requiring an AOC so if you are not one of those then the existing situation applies per the text I have extracted here (I may have missed some or oversimplified so you will need to read the whole CAAP yourself).

 

5.2 TheActs Interpretation Act 1901; and Electronic Transactions Act 1999 are the enabling legislation allowing the use of digital media to display the documentation required by the Civil Aviation Act 1988 and any of its subordinate regulations.

5.3 Documents that have already been approved in accordance with the relevant regulations do not need additional approval if they have been stored in the EFB in essentially the same form as the original document.

In the past, Australia published Airworthiness Bulletin 00-017 which endorsed the FAA AC 120-76A as guidance for EFBs in Australia.

This still applies so read it here http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/airworth/awb/00/017.pdf

 

[Herm]

Is this my groundhog day?