ASIC renewal

[Robbo]

Because it has been "going on for years" doesn't make it right.I have paid for one every 2 years since they invented the requirement, but that doesn't mean I agree with the "waste of my money".

But posting on an enthusiasts forum is not going to change anything. As GreyBeard said if you feel strongly about this use your energy and write to your local MP or even the Minister for Transport.

 

I doubt it will change anything but you would have a better change than posting on a forum made up of enthusiasts and rec flyers.

 

I have renewed my ASIC 8 times and never once have I thought about the money, it's the pot of treasure at the end of the rainbow in this case the treasure is the privilege of being able to fly where I wan't and when I wan't.

 

 

[Robbo]

Not correct !

You do if you plan to land at another airport (SC) remember you may not plan to but you may need to divert.

 

 

[Robbo]

I will get the famous Benny Buckley to talk to his CASA mates

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Not much point bitching to the bitchers, if you feel strongly enough about it wind up your local MP.Can't remember the last time any legislation/law/rule was ever changed as a result of a forum thread.

This very forum had a significant input into the jabiru rules apparently.

 

When it comes to CASA and government - Forums, whinges and minor complainants can carry far more weight than their value when the thing they espouse is MORE constraints and rules.

 

But no amount of complaining, common sense or natural justice will carry any weight when it implies LESS constraints and rules.

 

 

[biggles]

I will get the famous Benny Buckley to talk to his CASA mates

Er CASA 'mates' , I really think he's got enough on his plate at the moment ... Bob

 

 

[Jaba-who]

I too have been paying my $200-ish every 2 years since the ASIC stupidity started and in that time - due to typical delays in processing etc I have lost nearly 8 months worth of the money I paid.

 

In that time I actually had it legally looked at once - stupidly - at darwin airport where 16 of us had to line up one at a time and hold our ASIC to the camera while someone at the other end looked at it and pretended he could tell if the person on the card matched the person standing in front of the camera - and once when AFP came into the hangar which was locked to airside and wanted to inspect my ASIC.

 

Apart from that no one has ever looked at it despite operating out of an international airport and flying to many many security controlled airports.

 

They were, are and remain a total WOFTAM

 

 

[biggles]

You do if you plan to land at another airport (SC) remember you may not plan to but you may need to divert.

I doubt that the authorities would insist on an ASIC in an 'emergency' , but then again !! ........ Bob

 

 

[djpacro]

..... AND a need to fly into or from a security controlled airport that has regular public transport operations.....Penalty: 20 penalty units.

Kaz, I think you will find that the actual requirement has the word "frequent" in there."You need a valid ASIC if you require frequent access to a secure area of a security controlled airport ..."

 

While Moorabbin only required an ASIC to cross the blue line around the RPT operations I just had an AVID. Prior to a rare flight into Essendon (land,taxi without stopping then depart) their Ops Manager told me that I couldn't do it without an ASIC and I pointed out the rule that I did not need an ASIC due to the infrequent access required .... there is no provision for infrequent access.

 

I heard somewhere that the whole ASIC system was being reviewed with an intent being to make it work the way it used to be at Moorabbin. i.e. if one stayed away from the limited area of RPT ops then an ASIC would not be required.

 

 

[greybeard]

This very forum had a significant input into the jabiru rules apparently.

Interesting. Not convinced.

It'd be pretty brave legislator/board member/researcher to justify altering any rules/laws etc on the basis of wading through any threads on an internet forum to extract any factual information. The signal to noise ratio is far to high.

 

As a means of discussion, yes, I can see a place, as a means of having a bitch session, probably healthier than the bar at the bowling club, as a means of collating factual information to be used as justification for making changes, pretty hard work from what I can see.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Interesting. Not convinced.It'd be pretty brave legislator/board member/researcher to justify altering any rules/laws etc on the basis of wading through any threads on an internet forum to extract any factual information. The signal to noise ratio is far to high.

As a means of discussion, yes, I can see a place, as a means of having a bitch session, probably healthier than the bar at the bowling club, as a means of collating factual information to be used as justification for making changes, pretty hard work from what I can see.

There is a complete thread or actually several threads about this so it should probably be continued there - so I will not continue this discussion here lest we get yelled at but .... One last word.

 

It is my understanding that direct reference was made of this forum as part of the list of "sources of concern in the industry" at a safety conference just the day prior to the public announcement of the rule. There being no actual figures or data the role of "sources of concern" became magnified beyond its real worth to become the prime reason for the imposition of the rule.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Kaz, I think you will find that the actual requirement has the word "frequent" in there."You need a valid ASIC if you require frequent access to a secure area of a security controlled airport ..."

 

While Moorabbin only required an ASIC to cross the blue line around the RPT operations I just had an AVID. Prior to a rare flight into Essendon (land,taxi without stopping then depart) their Ops Manager told me that I couldn't do it without an ASIC and I pointed out the rule that I did not need an ASIC due to the infrequent access required .... there is no provision for infrequent access.

 

I heard somewhere that the whole ASIC system was being reviewed with an intent being to make it work the way it used to be at Moorabbin. i.e. if one stayed away from the limited area of RPT ops then an ASIC would not be required.

See Information point 3 in CASA Form 498 which refers to section A4 which reads:

 

You must have an operational need to have an ASIC. This includes having a valid flight crew licence, a current medical certificate and a need to fly into or from a security controlled airport that has regular public transport operations ...

 

The way it worked at Moorabbin was how it ought to work but that doesn't seem to be the case these days. I went to a big flyin at Deniliquin not long after all this started and the Council, as the authority, decreed it would not impose security requirements outside of the RPT area delineated by the blue line.

 

I remember we had a car load of AFP personnel turn up checking immobilisers and anything else they could think of. I had my dog, Mandy, tied to the Auster in the shade and one of them told me he was going to book me for having a dog on the airfield. I was probably a little brusque with him as I showed him the CASA permit I paid $160 for so she could fly with me.

 

II had long red hair for my first ASIC photo but went short blonde not long afterwards. I flew to Alice Springs and left the aeroplane parked there for a few days. Arrived 06:00 at the nominated gate to meet security and be given admission to the GA area and he looked at my ASIC. He said: "That's not you!" Took a bit of convincing :-)

 

Kaz

 

 

[Robbo]

Just remember the AFP and the airport authority's are just doing there job.

 

They don't make the rules they just enforce them.

 

No need to shoot the messenger.

 

 

[djpacro]

Kaz, I am disappointed that you quoted the form rather than the regulation.

 

 

[Roscoe]

You do if you plan to land at another airport (SC) remember you may not plan to but you may need to divert.

But dont you only need it at A SC Airport if you want to access the security section of that Airport?

Example, Port Macquarie which has a gate leading to the Flight School section, and another part where you need the ASIC to access the Terminal building from Airside.

 

 

[biggles]

...........I heard somewhere that the whole ASIC system was being reviewed .......,.

I am reliably informed that the submission that we were all invited to contribute to, has indeed been submitted to our political masters . Just another example of the work being done by our dedicated team in Canberra ..... Bob

 

 

[kaz3g]

Kaz, I am disappointed that you quoted the form rather than the regulation.

I think you just want me to do all the scrolling through the gumpf!

 

I haven't found any reference to "frequent" but this is what I have found in the Regs...

 

Regulation 3.03 is a bit of a mess because it has been amended (surprise) but essentially you seem to need a red ASIC to be airside anytime where there is a screened RPT service, or at times between 2 hours either side of the times when scheduled traffic is operating at a non-screened security airport.

 

My reading is that non-RPT scheduled traffic includes charter aircraft of 5700 kilos or more...see category 6 security airport in 3.01B and I think that stitches up Moorabbin.

 

It also seems that airport operators can decide what standard they want to apply under their TSPs but I'm over reading legislation right now.

 

3.03 Requirement to display ASICs in secure areas

 

(1) Subject to subregulations (4), (4A) and (5), regulations 3.05 to 3.09 and subregulations 3.18(2) and 3.26(2):

 

(a) a person in the airside security zone of a security controlled airport must properly display a valid red ASIC; and

 

(b) a person in a secure area (other than the airside security zone) of such an airport must properly display either a valid red ASIC or a valid grey ASIC.

 

Penalty: 5 penalty units.

 

Note 1: The requirement in subregulation (1) applies to a person who is accessing parts of the sterile area not generally accessible to passengers or the public.

 

Note 2: For properly displaying, see regulation 1.04; for valid, see regulation 1.05; for secure area, see regulation 1.03.

 

Note 3: A person who properly displays a valid VIC or TAC, and is supervised by a person who properly displays a valid ASIC, need not display a valid ASIC—see regulation 3.09.

 

(2) To avoid doubt, the obligations in subregulation (1) apply to crew.

 

(3) A contravention of subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.

 

(4) Subregulation (1) does not apply in relation to a security controlled airport from or to which no regular public transport operation operates.

 

(4A) At a security controlled airport from or to which no screened air service operates, paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) apply only during traffic periods.

 

(4B) To avoid doubt, there is no requirement that a person display a VIC or TAC in the secure area of an airport referred to in subregulation (4A) other than during traffic periods.

 

(5) Subregulation (1) does not apply to a person:

 

(a) who is in a part of the sterile area that is generally accessible to passengers or the public generally; or

 

(b) who is a passenger and:

 

(i) is boarding or disembarking from an aircraft by means of an aerobridge; or

 

(ii) is boarding or disembarking from an aircraft in the secure area and is moving reasonably directly between the aircraft and the terminal building.

 

6.27 (5) An issuing body must not issue an Australia‑wide ASIC unless the ASIC holder has an operational need to access more than one airport.

 

6.28. (1) Subject to subregulations (3), (4), (4A), (4D) and (4H) and regulations 6.29 and 6.31, an issuing body may issue an ASIC to a person only if:

 

(a) the person has an operational need for an ASIC; and......

 

 

[djpacro]

"frequent" at https://infrastructure.gov.au/transport/security/aviation/asi/asics.aspx

 

from reg 6.01:

 

" operational need means:

 

(a) a requirement for frequent access to all or part of a secure area of an airport where persons are required to display an ASIC, for either of the following purposes:

 

(i) the operation of the airport or an aircraft;"

 

 

[kaz3g]

"frequent" at https://infrastructure.gov.au/transport/security/aviation/asi/asics.aspxfrom reg 6.01:

 

" operational need means:

 

(a) a requirement for frequent access to all or part of a secure area of an airport where persons are required to display an ASIC, for either of the following purposes:

 

(i) the operation of the airport or an aircraft;"

Ah ha... I have been going cross-eyed on the iPad because it doesn't scroll Comlaw like the laptop does.

 

But the problem is that an AVID doesn't give you entry to those areas that require an ASIC so what does a person do if they need infrequent access? For that matter, what does "frequent" mean?

 

I don't think your argument that you only had an infrequent need for an ASIC would save you in a prosecution for a breach of 3.03(1)(a).

 

And "operational need" encompasses a range of people other than pilots which suggests it will carry a different imperative for different people.

 

I've heard pilots saying they would ask to be "escorted" but I can't see how that would work because you are already airside ie in a security area if at an RPT airport or at one with scheduled traffic during the 4 hour period.

 

It's a mess but what's new?

 

Kaz

 

 

[coljones]

Kaz, were you able to establish whether there is an "airside security zone" which is different from some other part of airside. It is all a little confusing as either airside at a security controlled airport is THE "airside security zone" or it is something else. To save the problem I shelled out my $200. I haven't changed my hair colour and I am yet to go for the coffee discount at maccas at KSA. Keep well

 

Col

 

 

[robinsm]

This topic has been going on for years but it all comes down to the rules.If you wan't to fly you must have a ASIC or AVID no matter how you look at it.

 

I don't think it will change anytime soon so just move on and pay for your ASIC or AVID and enjoy this wonderful thing called flight.

only is you have a GA licence. Raa Aus cert does not require an ASIC unless you fly into sec controlled airports.

 

 

[Pearo]

what did you pay last time and this time and who were the vendors?

I cant remember what I paid last time, but it was exactly 2 years ago and I thought it was about $60. I could be confusing that with my former Student Pilot Licence though. This time I used CASA's suggested online method and the cost was about $200.

 

 

[Stoney]

Does anyone know who (apart from the AFP) is authorised to ask to see your ASIC card?

 

What would be the extent of their authority?

 

Can they detain you?

 

Can they physically restrain you if you don't comply?

 

If a person has an ASIC card, does that authorise them to inspect others? Geoff13 mentioned that a woman with the fuel truck and an ASIC card asked to see his.

 

I think things would get quite ugly if some Council worker laid hands on me while I was going about my own business.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Does anyone know who (apart from the AFP) is authorised to ask to see your ASIC card?

Well anyone can ask, but a large proportion of those can be told to "sod off". If they're not empowered to detain you there's nothing stopping you from just keeping on walking.

 

What would be the extent of their authority?Can they detain you?

Can they physically restrain you if you don't comply?

All inter-related questions and generally anyone authorised to stop you can also by default physically restrain you. Remember in all cases they're only allowed to use "necessary force". In other words, if you happily comply they can't suddenly decide to kick you in the shins and wrestle you to the ground (or they'll be in very big trouble). The Act specifically authorises these people to stop and/or physically detain you when they're on duty at an airport:

 

• Police, including AFP, State/Territory police, and Australian Protective Service Officers or Special Protective Service Officers.
   
   
  
• Customs officers (ie, "Border Force" officers these days).
   
   
  
• Airport security guards.
   
   
  
• Security screening officers.
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

If a person has an ASIC card, does that authorise them to inspect others? Geoff13 mentioned that a woman with the fuel truck and an ASIC card asked to see his.

No it doesn't. With the fuel lady I guess you have a choice depending what mood you're in, and whether it's worth upsetting her while she's helping you refuel your plane. But ultimately she's a fuel truck driver, not a security guard. I suspect she was having delusions of grandeur.

Basically it's common sense. If that person's job is airport security then yes they can ask, stop, detain, and even restrain. If their job is not airport security then they should just get on with their job, and if they have any problem or suspicion, find someone who is employed in airport security.

 

 

[kaz3g]

[MAP][/MAP]

 

Kaz, were you able to establish whether there is an "airside security zone" which is different from some other part of airside. It is all a little confusing as either airside at a security controlled airport is THE "airside security zone" or it is something else. To save the problem I shelled out my $200. I haven't changed my hair colour and I am yet to go for the coffee discount at maccas at KSA. Keep wellCol

The requirements for airside generally are contained in 3.15(3)

 

(3) The responsible aviation industry participant for the airside area of the airport must ensure that the area can be entered only by:

 

(a) a person authorised to do so who:

 

(i) properly displays a valid ASIC; or

 

(ii) properly displays a valid VIC or TAC and is supervised by someone authorised to enter the area who properly displays a valid ASIC; or".........

 

All of the grey and hatched areas in the plan at Reg 3.02

 

https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2015C00763/Html/Text#_Toc429579745

 

require an ASIC at a security controlled airport. All airside is included.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Geoff13]

Well anyone can ask, but a large proportion of those can be told to "sod off". If they're not empowered to detain you there's nothing stopping you from just keeping on walking.All inter-related questions and generally anyone authorised to stop you can also by default physically restrain you. Remember in all cases they're only allowed to use "necessary force". In other words, if you happily comply they can't suddenly decide to kick you in the shins and wrestle you to the ground (or they'll be in very big trouble). The Act specifically authorises these people to stop and/or physically detain you when they're on duty at an airport:

 

• Police, including AFP, State/Territory police, and Australian Protective Service Officers or Special Protective Service Officers.
   
   
  
• Customs officers (ie, "Border Force" officers these days).
   
   
  
• Airport security guards.
   
   
  
• Security screening officers.
   
   
  

 

 

 

No it doesn't. With the fuel lady I guess you have a choice depending what mood you're in, and whether it's worth upsetting her while she's helping you refuel your plane. But ultimately she's a fuel truck driver, not a security guard. I suspect she was having delusions of grandeur.

 

Basically it's common sense. If that person's job is airport security then yes they can ask, stop, detain, and even restrain. If their job is not airport security then they should just get on with their job, and if they have any problem or suspicion, find someone who is employed in airport security.

In fact she was an airport security gaurd escorting the fuel truck at the time.