Garry Morgan Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 LSA after spending 2 years on our Sierra 200 having the first approval cancaled for some reason RAA wont tell us of replie to and E mails or post. we tried to go LSA and I think we are 90% there .I had a guy that has an appointment with CASA come to the hangar to look at the aircraft. There is no way this guy is going to pass anything. and to finish off he said my aircraft will never pass LSA with the Jabiru motor . So I wonder where this will end up ? This now i believe is in CASA hands who are looking at the Jab motor. I got a bit rude with a well know CASA guy and told them that no aircraft will fly in Aussie soon the way things are going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 If there is a certified jabiru engine out there and you have one and install it properly that should be it. re your last comment. THEY don't care whether you or me or anyone else flys. they have the say and that's the way it is. Grounded plane are safe ones. that's how it is with them. There is nothing in it for them to stick their necks out. Good luck anyhow. Nev 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Sorry to hear that Garry, To be told "there is no way" is profoundly arrogant. Where there is a will there is always a way. Get better advice and determine in yourself to give it your best shot. You have had some hard lessons applied over past months, now try and capitalise on them. As much as there was much controversy over some recent issues with you, I am certain the majority would rather you succeed and improve your aircraft than see your demise. So all power to you ... give it your best shot. Sincerely, 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 LSA after spending 2 years on our Sierra 200 having the first approval cancaled for some reason RAA wont tell us of replie to and E mails or post. we tried to go LSA and I think we are 90% there .I had a guy that has an appointment with CASA come to the hangar to look at the aircraft.There is no way this guy is going to pass anything. and to finish off he said my aircraft will never pass LSA with the Jabiru motor . So I wonder where this will end up ? This now i believe is in CASA hands who are looking at the Jab motor. I got a bit rude with a well know CASA guy and told them that no aircraft will fly in Aussie soon the way things are going. Perhaps we need to be filled in with a LOT more details of exactly what is going with Ra-Aus in regards to some LSA Aircraft and their manufacturers lately... from what I can gather some LSA rego aircraft were grounded and Factory Compliance withdrawn... No one seems to have answered the question of why or given anything too much concrete. What can you tell us Garry? And to Ra-Aus... What is going to be done to fix it? How bad was the problem... Heck!!! What was the problem? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damkia Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Perhaps we need to be filled in with a LOT more details of exactly what is going with Ra-Aus in regards to some LSA Aircraft and their manufacturers lately...And to Ra-Aus... What is going to be done to fix it? How bad was the problem... Heck!!! What was the problem? ...and why haven't those people that have PAID YOUR SALARY (by way of subscriptions to RA-Aus) been kept INFORMED of what is going on in an HONEST, and OPEN manner befitting an executive structure? Time for a legal referral, I think. At the very least a formal complaint and request for a spill of ALL positions within RA-Aus to be made to CASA by way of their overall governance of RA-Aus, followed by a gradual rebuilding by CASA of RA-Aus with new staff, and a new charter. The more I see of this clandestine, deceitful behaviour by an organisation entrusted to guard the safety of the flying population the less inclined I am to become a part of it (I'll go GA despite the extra cost and complexity). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I don't see the problem being with RAAus. You couldn't have a situation where they could put pressure on the regulator. The legislation does not require CASA to aid any body. The FAA operate differently. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damkia Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I don't see the problem being with RAAus. You couldn't have a situation where they could put pressure on the regulator. The legislation does not require CASA to aid any body. The FAA operate differently. Nev RA-Aus have grounded aircraft without reasonable explanation (per your post #2 and Windsor68 #4) RA-Aus have failed to explain WHY an aircraft with a certified Jab motor will not pass LSA (Gary's post #1) RA-Aus operate as an entity under CASA, separate from GA, but still under CASA by way of the various exemptions to the regulations required by RA-Aus registered aircraft. Ultimately this whole lack of transparency and consistency by RA-Aus needs to be referred to the governing body - CASA. (escalating the problem due to inappropriate response). Sweep it under the carpet for another year????....and another year???????......and another year???????????? I say, bring it to a head and fix the problem NOW, before more people die (literally). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashley Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 ........This now i believe is in CASA hands who are looking at the Jab motor....... Gary can you expand on that comment a bit, it sounds to me as though they are reviewing their "approval" for the J engine(s). Is that what you meant? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I took Gary as being involved with CASA because that is what he said. ( I still believe that is the case.) It is CASA that is making the decision. If the RAAus was involved in withdrawing the original approvals for whatever reason that was then and may not necessarily be the issue here. They would be doing it as directed I assume in the first instance. I just cannot see your point of complaining to CASA about the RAAus actions. and I can't see what is being swept under the carpet. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damkia Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I took Gary as being involved with CASA because that is what he said. ( I still believe that is the case.) It is CASA that is making the decision. If the RAAus was involved in withdrawing the original approvals for whatever reason that was then and may not necessarily be the issue here. They would be doing it as directed I assume in the first instance. I just cannot see your point of complaining to CASA about the RAAus actions. and I can't see what is being swept under the carpet. Nev These two questions remain... RA-Aus have grounded aircraft without reasonable explanation (per your post #2 and Windsor68 #4)RA-Aus have failed to explain WHY an aircraft with a certified Jab motor will not pass LSA (Gary's post #1) It is the RA-Aus that is the "mouthpiece" here, and by both accounts the response was non-existant or unsatifactory. If there is a reason, then it is fair and just that that reason be known to those who need to know, and the RA-Aus should be the people to do it even if it is decree from CASA. A design was produced around a certified engine package in use by other companies, and the design has been rejected on the basis of its use of that engine package. No compensation, minimal explanation. Does Gary have a right to a full explanation given the cost involved in re engineering the aircraft for a different engine, or the exclusion from the now lucrative LSA market? I am not "taking down" RA-Aus, simply stating that there appears to be a distinct lack of accountability and responsibility within the organisation, resulting in inconsistent decision making processes, and a lack of adequate communication with the people they are legally delegated to communicate with. With that in mind, perhaps there needs to be another look at who is responsible for these decisions (spill of positions), and the structure that allows the decision making and communication to be done in such a way (charter). This would be best addressed by CASA from the ground up by "rebuilding" RA-Aus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I have been following this closely as I talk to Gary Morgan and know his frustration. I also know a private owner who has gone through all the frustration of having his Foxcon Terrier removed from LSA. I also have spoken to several board members and they have not been able to change anything, but look at this link and read the name of the people and you will understand. http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100159/d2p7_lsa.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 It is found from this other link involving Casa Design and Manufacturing Seminar Agenda - 22-23 May 2012 , http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:1001:pc=PC_100130 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damkia Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I have been following this closely as I talk to Gary Morgan and know his frustration. I also know a private owner who has gone through all the frustration of having his Foxcon Terrier removed from LSA. I also have spoken to several board members and they have not been able to change anything, but look at this link and read the name of the people and you will understand. http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100159/d2p7_lsa.pdf The board members may not have been able to change anything, but they could have more effectively communicated this fact with a bit of explanation.... The history of Lee Ungermann (circled in the document) is what (or is he even the "intended target")? A good percentage of people here may not be "in the know". Is it possible to give a reasonably concise, objective overview here, or is this another "swept under the carpet", "never to be spoken about again" exercise in history? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Just tried a dozen times to download this document, every time it gets to around the 1.4mb mark and freezes:bash: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 The board members may not have been able to change anything, but they could have more effectively communicated this fact with a bit of explanation....The history of Lee Ungermann (circled in the document) is what (or is he even the "intended target")? A good percentage of people here may not be "in the know". Is it possible to give a reasonably concise, objective overview here, or is this another "swept under the carpet", "never to be spoken about again" exercise in history? The document also involves Mick Poole if you look at the top of the page, he is the technical officer Sports Aviation at CASA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 And if you read the document with a view of taking it ALL in rather than just looking for names you would see that much of the focus on LSA in Australia stemmed from USA experience where 26 of 30 LSA examples failed to meet the regulatory requirements of LSA in the USA, FAA pressumably in turn advised CASA who pressumably suddenly became much more interested than they might otherwise have been. Dont know for sure but would suggest that coms between FAA and CASA probably wasnt directly to Lee or Mick, rather they might well have recieved marching orders from on high......and here we now are.... Or have I completely missed the point? I must admit I would like to know how many of the 26 failures would have been classed as failures here given our much more sensible rules like speed = what ever you feel you can get out of the limitations applied elswhere rather than 120kts=go no faster....still it would be exceedingly hopeful to suggest that would affect the majority.... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 re Foxcon Terrier LSA i was notified on 21/5/2012 that the Special Certificate of Airworthiness issued for my aircraft 24 xxxx is invalid and therefor the aircraft "must not be flow" until is has been reclassified to 19 xxxx. from what information i can get it appears to be an issue with the engine (Subaru) the negotiations have been beween the Manufacturer, C.A.S.A andR.A.A. The manufacturer informed me by email that my registration will be reclassified to 19 catagory. The aircraft was first registered as 24 xxxx on 6/3/2008 aproved by C.A.S.A and R.A.A. has been happily acceping my registration money since then. i purchased 24 xxxx aircraft for reasons such as dual controls for training if needed and hire of aircraft to other pilots whose criteria is acceptble to insurance provider. Manufacturer, C.A.S.A and R.A.A. have come to an agreement but guess who loses out financially (loss of value of aircraft) loss of maybe income from hire. you guessed right> ME. maybe i will be finacially compensated for the loss and projected losses that i have incurred. I still have not been notified when i can fly my aircraft or does is become a static display in a hanger that i pay rent for. i do not know the status of other owners dilemas. snow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Snow and a few others. Aviation IS a great way to lose money. Welcome to the flying world. All that is happening is that a bit of slackness has been out there and it is being addressed. I lost about 60k in the last 5 years because rules were changed in midstream. I don't expect compensation nor should you, because I'm a realist, not a hoper. It would be a good thing for the participants in aviation if they had a bit more assurance of things being done predictably and consistently. Would I seriously advise any one to get involved in aviation. NO. Do I have friends who are involved in aviation in a big way YES. Do they think things are done right? NO . is it likely to change for the better No.... Nev 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
av8vfr Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Snow and a few others. Aviation IS a great way to lose money. Welcome to the flying world. All that is happening is that a bit of slackness has been out there and it is being addressed. I lost about 60k in the last 5 years because rules were changed in midstream. I don't expect compensation nor should you, because I'm a realist, not a hoper. It would be a good thing for the participants in aviation if they had a bit more assurance of things being done predictably and consistently. Would I seriously advise any one to get involved in aviation. NO. Do I have friends who are involved in aviation in a big way YES. Do they think things are done right? NO . is it likely to change for the better No.... Nev While I can see all the logic in this statement, the best part is your signature "never stop learning".... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deskpilot Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 This saga reminds me of when I applied to emigrate to Australia. Dragged on and on and no reason for delay was forthcoming. My wife was also fed up with the negative answers so she sent a telegram to the highest position possible, the Minister For Emigration. He was so surprised as no one had ever done it before. We emigrated 6 weeks later. I suggest you do the same. Go to the top. In this case I guess the Minister of Aviation!! It is his job to get you some answers. Even CASA won't like questions being asked in da house. Don't give in to the 'faceless/gutless' ones who run the show. As said before, we pay their wages. Make them earn it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 av8fr, perhaps you mean "don't give up". Because I've had a lot of time and know a lot of others still in aviation, and some who have given up and left, we can all learn by listening to their views. I don't know anyone who is happy with it. The system needs changimg to correct these problems. How many of you belong to AOPA, which is about the only organisation that has much voice for reason and change, out there. Believe me, it used to be better. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garry Morgan Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 Snow you will need to change to 19- by getting a final inspection and all that goes with a new rego home built. The Jab motor cert. is now out of RAA hands and I am told it is now a CASA matter, dont know where this will go , But I think Rod will have the paper work . I hope for all the 24 Jabs out there . Just the lack of getting info from RAA and answers, The changes in medicals , for a lot of people the SAAA is looking very good, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Wow!!!!!! just imagine that as a possible outcome, all 24 reg'd J's becoming 19 reg'd OMG snow x 1000......... training......all those aircraft on line.....Off line..... whole bunch of forced sales due no income servicing the debt!!!doesnt bear thinking about does it!!!!!! No matter how good the Australian economy is, this would generate a recession in the rec flying sector!!!! If it were to turn out that way suddenly instead of a small minority being impacted it would be a very large majority being impacted.........interetsing times hey! Still, all speculation pressumably until action occurs..... Andy (mines already 19 by choice.....No not choice, other than J chose to sell it as a kit rather than a completed aircraft.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Andy, Your Quote- LSA in Australia stemmed from USA experience where 26 of 30 LSA examples failed to meet the regulatory requirements of LSA in the USA, FAA pressumably in turn advised CASA who pressumably suddenly became much more interested than they might otherwise have been.__ I believe This started in Australia, and because of the Audit by Casa, and the former management of RAA now Casa management. Very little info about our former Tech manager resignation reasons but lots of speculation. The worst part of this is they are destroying aircraft manufactures in Australia. Andy this is not about to happen it is happening. Facthunter, Nev, it is not acceptable to set up a buisness as Morgan aeroworks, Foxcon, Lightwing. Fisher etc and invest time and money for a bunch of public servants that know more about nothing than most people to destroy all their efforts without any reasonable assistance. No one in their right mind will ever develop an aircraft in Australia again. The USA may have a different approach and not want to destroy but improve. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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