Jab down at Wentworth

[turboplanner]

OK, would be good if we could go over the exercise - original plans vs what happened etc, because we talk very little about Performance & Operations, and there would be plenty of people here who've only just done circuits and a few little hops where they knew the country.

 

 

[Thirsty]

Agreed. We learnt a lot from this and I'd like to share all of that so hopefully he'll be cool with sharing.

 

 

[j230]

Agreed. We learnt a lot from this and I'd like to share all of that so hopefully he'll be cool with sharing.

Hi

Have you heard from the pilot on exactly what happened

 

 

[Thirsty]

Hi All,

 

Sorry for the late reply on this.

 

Here is what happened:

 

We flew as a group up to Wentworth from Murray Bridge and in that group there were 3 LSA-55's and all were fueled to 60 litres before we left. We flew for around 2 hours and landed in the early afternoon. We then tied down for the night and went to our motels.

 

Next morning we flew to Lake Mungo which was about 35 miles. Prior to flying out one of the LSA's refueled but the other two didn't. I guess it was thought that 36 litres would be sufficient for the flight out and back (no fuel available at Lake Mungo).

 

We got to Lake Mungo with no problems. After departing Mungo Lodge airstrip we did a scenic flight around the Walls of China (a natural feature just out of Mungo Lodge) which added around 20 minutes to our trip time.

 

It was on the way back to Wentworth (about 11 nm short of the field) that the LSA ran out of fuel. Total time flown when he ran out of fuel was about 3.8 or 3.9 which at 12lph and 60 litres should have left a good reserve.

 

As usual there were a few factors that contributed to this accident.

 

1. The pilot was low time and hadn't been away with a group before.

 

2. He usually flies a J160 with lots of fuel capacity.

 

3. The fuel tank in that LSA is fairly opaque and it is quite hard to see the fuel level at times.

 

4. The sister ship to the one that crashed landed back at Wentworth with about 10 litres of fuel remaining so we would have expected the other plane to have about the same -they both burn fuel at around 12 lph.

 

5. The pilot of the crashed LSA didn't realise the pilot of the other LSA had refueled - he was going along with the other guys and not refuelling (he thought).

 

6. You can't lock the fuel tank of the LSA so it is possible fuel was stolen over night from that plane.

 

7. There was a certain amount of peer pressure to get going and keep up with the group.

 

8. The pilot didn't fly high enough or over suitable terrain on the way back from Mungo to enable a safe landing Just In Case.

 

I'm not having a go at the pilot because this sort of thing could happen to any of us if the right circumstances arise. I'm sure he's learned a valuable lesson here and will probably never run out of fuel again. We have no idea why it ran out of fuel when it should have had some left back at Wentworth just like the other LSA.

 

Other lessons we learned from this:

 

Make sure you have an epirb! Pilot didn't take one partially because the plane he usually flies has one mounted all the time. We could talk to the pilot on the ground via mobile and even though he gave us his GPS coordinates we still couldn't find him from the air! He was in a light brown saltpan with the aircraft upside down and covered in dust and mud so it blended in perfectly.

 

For some reason only one plane heard his mayday call. He made it on unicom which we were all monitoring but he probably should have had the area frequency dialled up Just In Case.

 

Anyway, the main thing is they survived and the aircraft will be flying again next week and we all learned lots of lessons.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Thanks, Thirsty for the clear report, which we can all learn valuable lessons from. Great to see a positive outcome. Jabirus attract plenty of knockers, but what other aircraft are so easily and so often repaired?

 

 

[facthunter]

You can not overemphasise fuel management. All the bagging of brand "X" may have some foundation but without "GO" juice, they all go quiet. Lots of aircraft are running short of fuel these days. It must be a culture thing as people do it in cars which have warnings and gauges better than most planes. This is a fortunate outcome but even so the damage is there and the risk was there. Take MORE care folks. There has been plenty said about this. so take it seriously. Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

No doubt the novice pilot has learned a lot of lessons from this incident, and I agree, he probabily won't run short of fuel anytime soon. A valuable lesson learnt for sure.

 

To assume that one engine will burn the same fuel as another of the same type, is risky at best, even in the same conditions.

 

Additionally an experienced pilot will be smoother on the throttle than a novice, with the novice probabily expected to use more fuel over the same distance. That's just the way it works folks.

 

What was dissapointing to me is that someone in the team didn't take the responsibilty to keep a closer eye on the novice (and his fueling especially), on what was his first trip of this type.So in the final analysis it shouldn't be only the novice who has learnt a few things here....................................Maj...

 

 

[fly_tornado]

how many planes are running out of fuel these days?

 

 

[Thirsty]

Yes the other lsa was flown by an instructor with many years experience. It wasn't his first trip away just his first trip with a group hence the peer pressure. I don't think the problem was that he didn't refuel at wentworth before the trip to mungo just that he wasn't 100% sure of how much fuel he had.

 

I don't really agree maj that we should have been looking out for him. He is a novice pilot but he is over 60 with many years of living and he is a cautious and careful pilot so it wouldn't have occurred to any of us to oversee what he was doing. I don't make a habit of checking what everyone else is up to when we go away, I tend to make sure I'm good to go and assume everyone else is doing the same.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

One of the real important skills required for successfull cross-country flying is how to manage fuel. No point getting visual with the destination, and running out of fuel before you get there. That's a big fail in fuel management, or fuel consumption planning...Another aspect of this particular incident that may have had bearing, is that he was in a different aircraft type to what he normally flew. This is a well know danger area, regardless of pilot experience, and is one of (the many) factors that got John Denver years ago in his Long-ezi...................................................Maj...

 

 

[Thirsty]

Agreed the major factor here was the different type. The major difference between the j160 he normally flies and the LSA is the fuel capacity. Consumption isn't hugely different but the capacity is. He learnt to fly in the lsa but the last, probably, 30 hours or so were in the 160.

 

I also agree about fuel planning when going places. It's very important but the beauty with the 160 is you've got 135 liters (maybe not legally) so fuel isn't that much of a problem but in the lsa it's very much an issue.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Thirsty, I must agree to disagree that you more experienced pilots should have kept an eye on him, and failure to do so may have contributed to the out come.

 

In the list of items in your previous post, by way of explaining the incident you state: Quote.....

 

1. The pilot was low time, and hadn't been away with a group before.

 

7. There was a certain amount of peer pressure to get going and keep up with the group.

 

How do you feel this elderly low-time novice pilot responded to this 'peer-pressure'.

 

Further the fact that the gentleman was mature age, and therefore should have been able to take care of things, is an incorrect assumption. A novice pilot is a novice pilot regardless of age, and he should have been treated the same as say, a new 20 year old pilot.

 

Personally I have found in my experience, that older folks starting to fly late in life, are often (but not always) the ones you do need to watch !!.....................................................Maj...

 

 

[facthunter]

We have very little going for us generally with inaccurate fuel gauges, no fuel flow indication, no fuel used indication. often no reliable dip system etc. The only time you know how much fuel you have on board is if it's full to the brim, Empty, or you have just added a fixed quantity of fuel to an empty tank or removed a fixed amount of fuel from a full one. If someone uses a bit more throttle or the engine has been modified or aircleaner contaminated or any thing similar you have a variable. that will bring you undone. I have argued for a large "cascolater' gravity systems etc "for ever ", it seems. I'm not pointing the finger. The job is not easy to do but whatever the problem, the "Show must go on". You must have a successful result. If you are aware of the fact that you have limited fuel remaining, it is far better to select your landing off field and do it with the engine running, than run out and have to get it all together then, with much less going for you. Nev

 

 

[j230]

Hi All,Sorry for the late reply on this.

 

Here is what happened:

 

We flew as a group up to Wentworth from Murray Bridge and in that group there were 3 LSA-55's and all were fueled to 60 litres before we left. We flew for around 2 hours and landed in the early afternoon. We then tied down for the night and went to our motels.

 

Next morning we flew to Lake Mungo which was about 35 miles. Prior to flying out one of the LSA's refueled but the other two didn't. I guess it was thought that 36 litres would be sufficient for the flight out and back (no fuel available at Lake Mungo).

 

We got to Lake Mungo with no problems. After departing Mungo Lodge airstrip we did a scenic flight around the Walls of China (a natural feature just out of Mungo Lodge) which added around 20 minutes to our trip time.

 

It was on the way back to Wentworth (about 11 nm short of the field) that the LSA ran out of fuel. Total time flown when he ran out of fuel was about 3.8 or 3.9 which at 12lph and 60 litres should have left a good reserve.

 

As usual there were a few factors that contributed to this accident.

 

1. The pilot was low time and hadn't been away with a group before.

 

2. He usually flies a J160 with lots of fuel capacity.

 

3. The fuel tank in that LSA is fairly opaque and it is quite hard to see the fuel level at times.

 

4. The sister ship to the one that crashed landed back at Wentworth with about 10 litres of fuel remaining so we would have expected the other plane to have about the same -they both burn fuel at around 12 lph.

 

5. The pilot of the crashed LSA didn't realise the pilot of the other LSA had refueled - he was going along with the other guys and not refuelling (he thought).

 

6. You can't lock the fuel tank of the LSA so it is possible fuel was stolen over night from that plane.

 

7. There was a certain amount of peer pressure to get going and keep up with the group.

 

8. The pilot didn't fly high enough or over suitable terrain on the way back from Mungo to enable a safe landing Just In Case.

 

I'm not having a go at the pilot because this sort of thing could happen to any of us if the right circumstances arise. I'm sure he's learned a valuable lesson here and will probably never run out of fuel again. We have no idea why it ran out of fuel when it should have had some left back at Wentworth just like the other LSA.

 

Other lessons we learned from this:

 

Make sure you have an epirb! Pilot didn't take one partially because the plane he usually flies has one mounted all the time. We could talk to the pilot on the ground via mobile and even though he gave us his GPS coordinates we still couldn't find him from the air! He was in a light brown saltpan with the aircraft upside down and covered in dust and mud so it blended in perfectly.

 

For some reason only one plane heard his mayday call. He made it on unicom which we were all monitoring but he probably should have had the area frequency dialled up Just In Case.

 

Anyway, the main thing is they survived and the aircraft will be flying again next week and we all learned lots of lessons.

Hi Thirsty

 

Thanks for the reply. Ive flown many an hour in the jab that went down which was a quite a few years ago, great little plane.

 

Regards Ray

 

 

[Thirsty]

Maj, I understand what you're saying but I know this fellow very well and he is a very capable person. I didn't feel the need to monitor him nor did anyone else as he seemed to be on top of things. The two lsa aircraft I refer to are the ones I train students in and I know they both use the same amount of fuel per hour. What happened to the "missing" fuel is a mystery.

 

I think you would be right if the person involved was a different personality. I don't think we can just put a blanket over all low time pilots and treat them the same, I don't do that with students and I don't do it with anyone else either. We're all different.

 

In this case I don't think anyone except the pic did anything wrong it was just one of those things.

 

FYI, I flew with this fellow from Perth to Adelaide in a 160 and he helped me make many decisions on that trip despite the fact he is low time.

 

 

[Thirsty]

G'day ray, yes that's for sure, a good plane. It'll be flying again next week.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I gladly accept your judgement call there thirsty. One of the problems with our lack of information on crashes from our own RAAus or CASA, is that we don't get to have educational discussions on them like we've had on this one, on this forum................................................................Maj...

 

 

[Thirsty]

It would be so much easier if we could all sit around having a beer and actually talk about the things rather than "write" it down like this. We'd be able to understand each others points of view much easier. At least the net allows us to discuss these things in this form which is better than not discussing at all!