I would like some opinions on the practice of forced landings

[turboplanner]

I'll match that offer too!

What methods do you guys use - floggings?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Electric shocks... It's meerly a question of voltage...:)

 

 

[Scooby]

Wise words.It's not that you might or might not do a good landing.

The issue is that you have taken an activity which already has some risk, and unnecessarily added to that risk.

 

To compare with gliders is dangerously misleading; they are designed for engineless flight.

 

For a start the glide ratio and lift factor are totally different, then the approach is different as well, then, if you get sink in a glider you can use that massive lift to get yourself out of trouble, whereas with the poor lift characteristics of a powered aircraft hitting windshear you're going SPLAT on the the deck.

 

Having the power pulled on you when you least expect it takes care of the surprise factor, and you still have a job of work to do if the instructor has chosen his point thoughtfully, but you can still use power to correct a mistake rather than bend the aircraft, and you can still escape from windshear.

 

So Scooby I think your instincts were correct, and in this case the airfield location is interesting.

Thats exactly the line of thinking thats in my mind. While completly dead stickin it creates the realism of the situation, is it really necessary? You have that moment before landing that an instructor can't help with if it goes nasty. My instructors sure put me in surprise situations and installed in me solid situation awareness by pulling the power off and saying, "well, what are you going to do"?. I have never been in a glider, but gliding without an engine is what they do. My main point is, if you have a real emergency in flight and the engine stops, do you think to yourself, "I wish i had of done some real dead stick practice"? I can see the point made my mozartmerv about experiencing the real thing, but is the risk worth teaching it to students.

[Scooby]

I think there may be some confusion. If your chief stops the fan, he is not teaching you how to do it. It's not training on how to shut the engine down. He is showing you what the aeroplane feel, looks and sounds like with the prop stopped.I agree with sentiments that fan stopping for kicks is a silly thing, the rules are quite clear on this. Only a CFi, in the cct under good conditions can do it. It's not a thing to do to scare your mate.

There are Many benefits to be gained by fanstops. The greatest (IMHO) is the confidence gained by the student when he realizes he can still put the aeroplane on a dime with no engine. And after having it dome once, it's miraculous that the student suddenly never let's the aeroplane get outside of gliding distance to a third of the way into the runway..

 

The restart technique while flying is another important training point. Especially if the prop has stopped windmilling. There are a few more tricks pilots learn aswel, such as using the starter motor to move the prop out of the way if it's blocking your vision.

 

I could go on, but I won't. The fact is it's a legal maneuver with huge benefits, and and bread and butter for any instructor.

This is a good comment, it gives me a bit more to think about.Cheers

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Absolutely. No question. Like all aviation activities, it's about controlling the risks. The trick is not letting the sotuation get out of hand. This should not be a problem for a CFI.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

I went for 30 years without ever experiencing wind shear, then copped two in a row on short final where the aircraft dropped maybe 50 feet and both times was saved by application of full power, once by the instructor, because I was asleep.How would you solve that problem with no power?

If your aimpoint is correct, you will be able to lower the nose until in ground effect and still not come up short.

 

 

[turboplanner]

If your aimpoint is correct, you will be able to lower the nose until in ground effect and still not come up short.

I guess this one depends where exactly you are on short final.

 

What height do you like to be at as you cross the fence/last obstacle?

 

 

[Scooby]

Absolutely. No question. Like all aviation activities, it's about controlling the risks. The trick is not letting the sotuation get out of hand. This should not be a problem for a CFI.

After giving it a bit of thought, you make good points to the benefits of dead sticking. Being that in PFL's everything is simulated, best glide (i can see dead stick, this could be different), engine restart procedures, being in best glide distance, radio procedures, Pax briefing, ect. Is there really any major benefit to teaching a student dead stick? I don't see a problem with it when the risks are controlled as you say, but is the instructor in control when the aircraft bounces and there is no option of full throttle?

[facthunter]

There's the eery? quietness of a stopped engine. OK we've got over that The plane still flies.(amazing)? Not really. Whether it flies better with a stationary prop than with a windmilling one depends on the individual situation. A windmilling prop CAN create a hell of a lot more drag than a stationary one especially if it is hooked to a turbine engine. So KNOW your plane and it's glide capability, with prop stopped, engine idling, and engine windmilling with no idle thrust. (switches off) but for the last one do it (practice) at height as most engines that are red geared will stop. ( U/L types). They probably won't airstart without a starter moter either.

 

All gliders land without an engine running.... Sure they do, but the modern ones are so good that you can go around from flare height over a hot surface strip. They are such an efficient thing that you have to try hard to get them down sometimes.

 

Spot landings. Fun exercise on a club day but don't try your spot landing technique out too close to the upwind fence in case you land on the wrong side of the fence at flying speed when you are doing a forced landing. You should aim further down the field than normal because you might get the situation Turbo describes. ( getting sink on final). A long final is never a good idea when forced landing. You have no "error fixer". If you stay in a constant overshoot situation and use extend base,or cut base , late flap selection or not till you are SURE of getting in, or low altitude sideslip in lieu, with an initiaal aiming point further down the runway than normal.

 

If you are going into a fence after landing ( when your speed will be reducing) ground loop into wind as you are about to hit the fence , if there is any chance the fence wires may injure you. Important on a saphire ,. drifter or any similar pusher (or a glider). Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

..... it's about controlling the risks. The trick is not letting the sotuation get out of hand. This should not be a problem for a CFI.

Control the risk better by not doing it, especially down low. Even CASA's display rules state that engines are to be kept running.I must ask the insurance company for their view.

In any case I am not a CFI so a problem for me. Furthermore the VDO is not ticking over so I wouldn't be paid for the time and I don't work for nothing.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

I guess this one depends where exactly you are on short final.What height do you like to be at as you cross the fence/last obstacle?

I personally would aim for 2/3rd's of the way down the runway, this should give you enough room no matter where on final you encounter the shear (more likely to be low level). Unless of course we are talking a very short runway, but for the most part these types of training scenarios are conducted on longer runways.

As for the second part of the question I always plan to cross the threshold at 50 feet!

 

 

[turboplanner]

You've covered my threshold issue by the 2/3 touch down point thanks. That would cover us for a big runway, but I'd steer away from short runways though.

 

 

[Scooby]

Conrtolled risk is in every part of our training as pilots, but when an instructor gives up that control for only a few seconds things can very well go to crap. Think of it, the instructor shuts down the engine in flight, all procedures are carried out normaly, the student over flairs and now the aircraft is in a bounce, now nobody has any control over the plane and no matter how experienced a CFI is, he cannot 100% prevent this from happening and the risk started when he flipped the switches. At least if the throttle was pulled to idle, the CFI has not lost any control in the risk. Even if the plan was to restart the engine before landing, what if it didn't start and then you are in a position where you have to land it dead stick. Like i said, i can see the benefit of doing dead stick, but the CFI giving up total control is just too much of a risk, and IMHO too dangerous

 

Like Ballpoint246niner said in his earlier post, The CFI must be damn sure he can handle the situation or have alot to answer to. But when he gives up that control for 2 seconds things can go nasty.

 

 

[turboplanner]

If you have doubts about something, and decide not do it you have eliminated 100% of the risk.

 

There are instructors who are good risk managers and there those who are not. These are the ones you thank for their time and avoid like the plague.

 

One of mine nearly killed me teaching me how to fly along a big drain below ground level.

 

There is also a risk if you avoid learning things which you need to survive, like stalls etc.

 

Motz and Co are making some good points, but in my opinion grasping the fundamental that when the power is pulled/engine fails, you instantly pushing the nose down until you GET flying speed comes first, and the rate of descent and lack of noise, and fright, might be academically interesting, but I will already have (a) crapped myself and (b) be looking for a big patch of grass.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Point taken tubz. If anyone is not happy with any aspect of their training they can vote with their feet ;).

 

As far as this bouncing and needing power business, if an instructor can't stop that happening before it gets to that stage he shouldn't be there.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

I found PFL that go right down to the deck (or say 1m off a paddock) to be better / much more realistic than the 'level off at 500 feet' thing Eric. Many areas only allow for the latter though.

 

 

[Scooby]

The only way a CFI could possibly prevent the bounce is if he was flying the a/c himself. I'm talking about the student in control and i have ballooned on landing enough times as a student with an instructor next to me to know that he will react after it happens.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Inflight restarts can be fraught... In RA Aus they are not normal operations, and I'm told that should it occur, an incident report is required...

Wayne it's time you got a starter motor!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes that because he let it happen:)

 

 

[facthunter]

If the instructor takes over before the misjudgement has produced the obvious results, a lot of times the student would not realise that anything bad was on the cards, so he will let it happen unless it is quite dangerous. The instructor would have to be a long way behind what's going on to be unaware that a bounce was likely to happen. He shouldn't be there as an instructor, if he is still learning basics. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes Nev is right. You can't compare apples to oranges. Letting you bounce the absolute crap out of a landing is a normal part of teaching you to land. It's no good drawing pictures on a whiteboard trying to explain what to do if it bounces. A good instructor will let you get it ugly, and let you attempt to correct it. Only if it's getting dangerous will he take over and talk you through what he's doing to correct it.

 

This is all standard day at the office stuff for any serious instructor. However in a situatiation where you have no go round option, he is not going to let it get anywhere near as far as that. And also, you wOuld not be ready for this type of training if you were still bouncing the bajesus put of it. Serious bounces that require power to save the day should be a thing of the past by the time your doin deadsticks.

 

 

[Scooby]

Fair enough. Thanks for the comments, i achieved what i set out to do by posting this thread and that was to get different opinions from pilots more experienced than me. So thanks guys

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

The bloody roos and birds at YCAB are enough reason alone to be able to go round with power!!At least if the props stopped you might save the prop and only wreck the plane!

 

 

[Scooby]

The bloody roos and birds at YCAB are enough reason alone to be able to go round with power!!At least if the props stopped you might save the prop and only wreck the plane!

For sure!

[M61A1]

What methods do you guys use - floggings?

I'm sure some do........one of our helicopter instructors was telling me how when he was a student, there were times when his instructor would hand over the a/c, then climb over the back ( I think he was in a Huey), then start punching him.