RA-Aus licence on way to PPL

[68volksy]

I have often been involved in conversations with people about the path they're taking to their PPL. The conversation usually starts with "Is it cheaper to get my RA-Aus licence and then convert across to a PPL". The straight-up answer is "Yes - the maths are really not that hard to do!" The question keeps getting asked however even though it's a real no-brainer on the surface.

 

I've realised that (most?) people aren't asking the question because they're incapable of doing the simple maths. They're asking it to gain feedback on the quality of their instructor in some instances but in most instances they seem to be asking it because they think it can't be that simple.

 

The topic is indeed not that simple. People asking generally have extremely limited knowledge of the different aircraft types and the different options that each type presents. They are also (mostly) approaching their flying school to give them a strong footing in what is perceived from the outside as a rather dangerous sport. Most give their instructors the respect that (most of? - again) them deserve and take note of what is said. Some pull their ego over their heads and forge onward regardless (ah the joys of the aviation faternity!).

 

The most common-sense answer I believe I have heard over the years is a simple "experience counts" answer - ie "Learn to fly the aircraft you actually want to fly and spend most of your time in that aircraft". I know it's worked for me - i'm still learning new things about the Warrior and am developing an "ear" for how the machine works.

 

Wondering what arguments others might present when faced with such a question.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just a question Volksy, have you ever flown a Jab?, particularly an LSA or a J170.

 

 

[Guest nunans]

I have often been involved in conversations with people about the path they're taking to their PPL. The conversation usually starts with "Is it cheaper to get my RA-Aus licence and then convert across to a PPL". The straight-up answer is "Yes - the maths are really not that hard to do!" The question keeps getting asked however even though it's a real no-brainer on the surface.I've realised that (most?) people aren't asking the question because they're incapable of doing the simple maths. They're asking it to gain feedback on the quality of their instructor in some instances but in most instances they seem to be asking it because they think it can't be that simple.

 

The topic is indeed not that simple. People asking generally have extremely limited knowledge of the different aircraft types and the different options that each type presents. They are also (mostly) approaching their flying school to give them a strong footing in what is perceived from the outside as a rather dangerous sport. Most give their instructors the respect that (most of? - again) them deserve and take note of what is said. Some pull their ego over their heads and forge onward regardless (ah the joys of the aviation faternity!).

 

The most common-sense answer I believe I have heard over the years is a simple "experience counts" answer - ie "Learn to fly the aircraft you actually want to fly and spend most of your time in that aircraft". I know it's worked for me - i'm still learning new things about the Warrior and am developing an "ear" for how the machine works.

 

Wondering what arguments others might present when faced with such a question.

If somebody asked me the same question my straight up answer would be "Not always"

 

My first hand experience would cause me to advise a new person interested in aviation to consider what the long term goal is, eg if ultimately you want a ppl then do that training right from the start. If you only want to fly RA aircraft and are happy to stay OCTA then do your training with an RA instructor.

 

My reason being I believe there are still a vast majority of GA schools and instructors who turn thier nose up at RA "certificates" and who will punish you in time and money, for costing them the loss of bussniess which they once enjoyed prior to RA growing so rapidly.

 

Just my 2c

 

 

[Bandit12]

What is scary is that the motivation seems to be to save some dollars.....aviation is not a cheap hobby. It can be affordable, or stupidly expensive, but it is never cheap. Getting a membership at the local library and loaning books to read is a hobby for those looking for cheap. Perhaps some people forget that the expense continues after gaining a license until deciding to give it up. Better to encourage people to stop asking for the cheaper options, and to instead ask about the better options (such as good instructors, whether they are RAA or GA).

 

 

[68volksy]

Just a question Volksy, have you ever flown a Jab?, particularly an LSA or a J170.

Had a jaunt in a Storm Rally and the school now has a J170 online although I haven't had a fly of it as yet. The J170 does tend to confuse the conversation further I must admit.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well 68 it would be well worth your while to pick a windy day with some cross - wind, doesn't have to be too extreme, and go up for an hour with an instructor.

 

My bet is you'll quickly see that you would be spending more hours training in the Jab than the Cherokee

 

So while the Jab is cheaper to hire, you lose much of that in having to spend longer because the aircraft wasn't performing to the precise control inputs you get with the Cherokee.

 

Add to that two lots of different training procedure which overlap, and the points Nunans makes and you have a confusing cost matrix.

 

Add to that mixing different instructors and schools, and again your progress becomes slower, and you pay for more hours.

 

Its a valid point that you will have more experience on more aircraft, and more challenges, but forget about it being cheaper - it may be thousands of dollars more expensive, and when you get to Commercial Pilot Licence level and are looking for work you may run into prejudice against flying "untralights' from some quarters.

 

There is a tired old line that "if you can fly a XXXX you can fly anything, but that's BS - you can fly the XXXX, but you still need to be endorsed on the anything. (I've just been reading a story about flying Wirraways, and what a piece of junk that was).

 

 

[68volksy]

Well 68 it would be well worth your while to pick a windy day with some cross - wind, doesn't have to be too extreme, and go up for an hour with an instructor.My bet is you'll quickly see that you would be spending more hours training in the Jab than the Cherokee

 

So while the Jab is cheaper to hire, you lose much of that in having to spend longer because the aircraft wasn't performing to the precise control inputs you get with the Cherokee.

An interesting argument I must admit I hadn't considered.

 

I have seen it argued the other way though as the majority of RA-Aus training at the school is in a Gazelle. If there's a simpler aircraft out there to fly I don't believe I've seen it. To step into the Warrior takes getting used to a great deal of differences - flaps, mixture, 35 knots quicker, much lower drag and much different circuit behavior and pattern. That's a lot to take in for a 15-25 hour pilot!

 

There is a very strong view on ultralight hours in the commercial world from my experience unless your focus is on RA-Aus instruction.

 

 

[djpacro]

In my opinion, the Gazelle is a great trainer. Having got some basic experience and confidence then move on to a more complex airplane. I've never seen any point in learning to fly in a difficult airplane.

 

And I don't regard a taildragger as difficult.

 

 

[robinsm]

To add another idea to the mix, if you start in Raa and later wish to go to GA, why not study and get the full GA ppl exams. These are usable for Raa, give you a better grounding in the theory of it all, and it is there when you want to go furthur.

 

 

[Spriteah]

Well I can input some in here. I started GA, went RAA then returned to GA. Delt with some bad GA schools that really just want money. Then found a good GA instructor and completed the PPL. It undoubtably cost me much more that it needed too.

 

So if you choose RAA first (which I would suggest) make sure the school and the individual instructor can and will do both. That is the only way it will save you money. PS. if you can fly some of the ultra lights in varying cross winds the bigger (real) planes are a walk in the park.

 

Jim..

 

 

[Tomo]

PS. if you can fly some of the ultra lights in varying cross winds the bigger (real) planes are a walk in the park..

I would only let someone that can fly a Drifter well fly my little Solitaire. The skill difference between that and a Warrior is no where similar! Warrior is a bit like walking on a concrete footpath as apposed to a tight rope across a swimming pool!

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

GA is a ripoff in this country, viable to train O/S such as the USA and convert to AU later. Definitely for helos unless it's convenience over cash for you of course.

 

 

[eightyknots]

GA is a ripoff in this country, viable to train O/S such as the USA and convert to AU later. Definitely for helos unless it's convenience over cash for you of course.

Quite a number from Britain do just that: they get their PPL in three weeks of intensive training in the USA and then convert to a British licence when they get back. This works out about two-thirds of the British cost had they done all the training there.

 

 

[Mick]

Quite a number from Britain do just that: they get their PPL in three weeks of intensive training in the USA and then convert to a British licence when they get back. This works out about two-thirds of the British cost had they done all the training there.

Not to mention it could take years to learn to fly in VFR conditions in the UK. Can you do Ab Initio IFR?

 

 

[eightyknots]

Can you do Ab Initio IFR?

 

It's hard enough for drivers of cars in the UK. But I like the ab initio IFR concept as that would fit British condtions very well!

 

 

 

[shafs64]

Congrats on your RA. And have fun in GA.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

eightyknots (or others) what is the training situation in New Zealand for GA & helo?

 

 

[eightyknots]

From what I understand, the PPL is pretty similar to Oz.

 

RPL was introduced 4-1/2 years ago. The main requirements are that there is only one passenger, and can fly a non-pressurised plane up to 2,000 kg. You're allowed to fly into and out of controlled aerodromes provided you have passed a colour blindness test.

 

 

[Flying Librarian]

My thoughts and therefore decision to go RA was mainly based on cost. I figured I would try RA up to and including a Nav endorsement. I could stop at any time if I thought I wasn't cut out for it (hardly likely!!), and wouldn't be out of pocket too much. Then go flying and travelling around the countryside for a while in a Recreational plane and upgrade to GA if I wanted to then. Try before you buy.

 

 

[eightyknots]

My thoughts and therefore decision to go RA was mainly based on cost. I figured I would try RA up to and including a Nav endorsement. I could stop at any time if I thought I wasn't cut out for it (hardly likely!!), and wouldn't be out of pocket too much. Then go flying and travelling around the countryside for a while in a Recreational plane and upgrade to GA if I wanted to then. Try before you buy.

Once the Flying Librarian carries a few too many books, the RA to GA transition will become inevitable so there will be a greater choice of books to borrow.

 

 

[bushpilot]

If somebody asked me the same question my straight up answer would be "Not always"My first hand experience would cause me to advise a new person interested in aviation to consider what the long term goal is, eg if ultimately you want a ppl then do that training right from the start. If you only want to fly RA aircraft and are happy to stay OCTA then do your training with an RA instructor.

My reason being I believe there are still a vast majority of GA schools and instructors who turn thier nose up at RA "certificates" and who will punish you in time and money, for costing them the loss of bussniess which they once enjoyed prior to RA growing so rapidly.

 

Just my 2c

We overcome this by offering both RA and GA training in the same school. Amongst our 5 instructors, 2 are CPL, 2 PPL and 1 RA PC, but we all instruct RA as well. That way we can be totally unbiased in explaining the options to new students - and, of course, give full credit for RA experience..

 

 

[Hongie]

i may just have to come and visit you one day bushpilot

 

 

[Planechaser]

So how many blokes/girls started their training in a 150 or a Tomahawk, or a Cub or a Moth for that matter?

 

So how different is a Tomahawk( which I did 35 of my 50 Hrs training in) to a Foxbat/Jab/150/Eurofox, whatever?

 

Now befor you all say chalk and cheese, I know that, but seriously, we are talking about light to very(ultra?) light, two seat training aircraft with two places and 100 to 120 hp donks.

 

It comes down to the attitude of the trainee and the trainer, in my opinion; nothing to do with the aircraft.

 

All I ever wanted to do was low level single stuff, but old Jack was still trying to push the idea, gently of course, of twin convesion and IFR because, in his words, he had me measured for a pilot and that's what pilots did!

 

On an other tack, in my short 500hrs( actually, within 200hrs) I had been in comand of a Tomahawk, a Cherokee, 3 models of 172, a Foxbat A22 and an A22LS, and I will be shortly doing my BFR in a Grummen Tiger, and perhaps going for a spin in a trike.

 

I consider myself very luck to have a broad range of experience, no matter how short it is, as it all adds to the bank of knowledge.

 

 

[facthunter]

All aeroplanes are aeroplanes. You can look at most of them and work out how they will fly. If the rudder is small, treat them carefully if no nosewheel. If it's got a bl22dy great engine feed it in slowly till you are used to it.. If it is fast over the fence have a fair bit of smooth runway. I used to be intimidated with big aircraft ( Like a Stinson Reliant) cause you can't see over the front till the tail is up. Fly every different one that you can if you have the chance. Do some tailwheel time and learn to 3 point. ( in the right aircraft). Twins are expensive and you need to keep current with the assy and have all the speeds in your head, and you don't need them unless you NEED them.nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

If you read the "Pilot Notes" euphamism for "Accident Reports" and count up the number of runway departures on landing, most with a wing damaged or an upending, you can soon conclude that if the rudder is small a nosewheel isn't going to help you either.