Capitalism, a love affair

[Old Koreelah]

Just watched Michael Moore's doco about the dire state of America's "free enterprise" system.

 

Some airline pilots being so poorly paid they rely on food stamps.

 

America's best and smartest going into banking, creating "complex financial instruments" while manufacturing industry is allowed to slide into oblivion. Bloated financiers getting control over Government, who change the rules to allow the rich to get even richer at the expense of the poor.

 

The only positive was evidence that ordinary people can dig themselves out of the mess.

 

How lucky we in Australia are. Unless we adopt the same policies...

 

 

[damkia]

The simplest way to straighten out the financial mess that is capitalism is to remove these "financial instruments" (exotic debt instruments, highly leveraged warrants, etc) and get back to basics.

 

If you can afford it, buy it.

 

If you can't afford it, tough.

 

One of the big issues started when economists decided that debt (people owing YOU money) was an asset, not a liability. Surely common sense would say that until it is paid off in full there is a possibility that it may not be paid off at all? Given that possibility then there is only one way it can be viewed, isn't there?

 

This is what the "Sub-Prime" mess in the US was all about - the fact that the people given the loans had no way of paying them off with the resultant increase in financial defaults and foreclosures. This caused the slump in housing prices and the remainder of the loanholders simply walking away, leaving the banks with huge unpaid loans on worthless properties, with the loanholders going into bankruptcy therefore protecting themselves from legal action.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

This is what the "Sub-Prime" mess in the US was all about - the fact that the people given the loans had no way of paying them off with the resultant increase in financial defaults and foreclosures.

Apparently the US government forced the banks to make most of these dodgy loans... under Clinton they passed laws requiring banks to lend a certain % of their home loans to the lower income folk or face heavy fines. Bill now admits it was a real bad idea.

 

Marxist Moore hates capitalism so much he apparently has given away all his wealth and gone to live under Communism where everyone is peaceful, equal and living in harmony for the common good.

 

But I agree with the folk above in the sense that our Capitalist system has gotten very corrupted and regulated to death and the financial system is a cesspool.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

still drinking the faux news cool aid gnu? funny how clinton's economy suffered the dotcom bubble based on wall street valuations of tech stocks and then bush's economy tanked from wall street valuations of mortgages

 

 

[David Pavlich]

Just watched Michael Moore's doco about the dire state of America's "free enterprise" system.Some airline pilots being so poorly paid they rely on food stamps.

America's best and smartest going into banking, creating "complex financial instruments" while manufacturing industry is allowed to slide into oblivion. Bloated financiers getting control over Government, who change the rules to allow the rich to get even richer at the expense of the poor.

 

The only positive was evidence that ordinary people can dig themselves out of the mess.

 

How lucky we in Australia are. Unless we adopt the same policies...

Since you listened to Michael Moore, the acclaimed economist (said tongue in cheek), you need to hear a real economist, Milton Friedman, who says more in about 2.5 minutes than Moore could say in a lifetime:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alP0WiL2P0g

 

 

[geoffreywh]

How true . Very clever man .....I like the earlier Micheal Moore Doco's " Sicko " and "Bowling for Colombine" better. Heavily biased but great entertainment. As a further inditement of American society there is some logic to the argument for allowing students to carry guns on campus. Maybe the mass murderer wont get as many shots off? The American society (and ours as well) is being ruined to a great extent by "No win no fee lawyers" .............I just read an American tale of a Petrol Can Manufacturer being sued out of business by people that used one of his cans to pour petrol onto fires and burned themselves sometimes to death...........After several multi million settlements goodbye to ALL petrol container manufacturers!........

 

 

[fly_tornado]

You need to see America's poverty to really understand what a failure its society is becoming. I was a bit shocked by how prevalent it is when I went to Reno last year.

 

 

[Sapphire]

Bloated financiers getting control over Government, who change the rules to allow the rich to get even richer at the expense of the poor.

 

That happens in Australis, ie the last revolution here brought a change of government because the mining industry didn't like the tax policies of the previous government-so Mr Rudd was disposed of. We think we have competative choice in day to day buying. only looks that way. Check out household costs in Europe and USA

 

 

[facthunter]

You guys should know better than talk politics here. It never gets anywhere. Nev

 

 

[Sapphire]

It doesn't have wings but it moves mountains.

 

 

[David Pavlich]

You guys should know better than talk politics here. It never gets anywhere. Nev

I have to agree. I'm new here, but the Milton Friedman thing is always something to make one go "hmnmmmm". At any rate, that's the last political post you'll get from me. As an aside, I'm a moderator on the largest astronomy forum, Cloudy Nights, and ANY political speak the shows up there is immediately sent packing. I think it's a good thing to have as part of the Terms of Service. There's plenty of fora out there to argue politics.

 

David

 

 

[Sapphire]

Hio Hitler

 

 

[damkia]

I have to agree. I'm new here, but the Milton Friedman thing is always something to make one go "hmnmmmm". At any rate, that's the last political post you'll get from me. As an aside, I'm a moderator on the largest astronomy forum, Cloudy Nights, and ANY political speak the shows up there is immediately sent packing. I think it's a good thing to have as part of the Terms of Service. There's plenty of fora out there to argue politics.David

OK, we'll just stick to economics, gender equality, and religion.....

 

 

[Guernsey]

OK, we'll just stick to economics, gender equality, and religion.....

AND FLYING.

 

 

[facthunter]

No-ones trying to stifle anything, but just show me ONE thread on politics that went anywhere here. There is more than enough of that stuff around. This is an aeroplane site, and that's why people come here. Politics is a BIG turn -off for many here, so why not talk about what we have in common or are there not enough aviation matters left? I'm sure there are... Nev

 

 

[damkia]

AND FLYING.

That belongs in "Off topic" not general chat...

 

 

[Sapphire]

We need to get back to what we always talk about-sex and flying.

 

 

[damkia]

We need to get back to what we always talk about-sex and flying.

.............a long way from the original post:off topic:

 

 

[turboplanner]

Since you listened to Michael Moore, the acclaimed economist (said tongue in cheek), you need to hear a real economist, Milton Friedman, who says more in about 2.5 minutes than Moore could say in a lifetime:

Thanks for that David, very insightful.

 

 

[facthunter]

If I f88d a landing, would that count as both? ( Sex and flying) Also If your co-pilot tells you to get f ...d would he/she be your sexual advisor? Nev.

 

 

[turboplanner]

If I f88d a landing, would that count as both? ( Sex and flying) Also If your co-pilot tells you to get f ...d would he/she be your sexual advisor? Nev.

If you ate a landing?

 

Today your co-pilot in that case would most likely be your behavioural psychologist.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Since you listened to Michael Moore, the acclaimed economist (said tongue in cheek), you need to hear a real economist, Milton Friedman, who says more in about 2.5 minutes than Moore could say in a lifetime:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alP0WiL2P0g

Pretty well said by Friedman who regularly makes a lot of sense. As the man said, there is no better system known as the free enterprise system. It's the financial manipulators that have ruined the system and brought about many mortgagee sales, hunger and poverty in the USA.

 

You need to see America's poverty to really understand what a failure its society is becoming. I was a bit shocked by how prevalent it is when I went to Reno last year.

I have seen this poverty first hand: people begging at the traffic lights in what appear to be wealthy suburbs of Seattle. Even though these beggars are from all walks of life, often they are Vietnam Veterans so it seems. This is largely due to the system's shortcomings.

 

The failure of the free enterprise system is mostly caused by the ridiculous rules that have spawned Ponzi schemes, "securitisation" of debts (turning them into 'assets' ), concentrations of banking powers including the Federal Reserve and the shocking and shameless tangle between Presidential politics and Big Money. When Big Money hit a rought patch, Big Government underwrote all their problems with taxpayers' dollars.

 

If it wasn't for free enterprise, there would probably be no recreational flying (as there is none in China, Cuba and North Korea).

 

 

[turboplanner]

Hio Hitler

You clearly weren't around in those times......

 

 

[shafs64]

Thier is a great docco on PBS called flying cheap.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Apparently the US government forced the banks to make most of these dodgy loans... under Clinton they passed laws requiring banks to lend a certain % of their home loans to the lower income folk or face heavy fines. Bill now admits it was a real bad idea.Marxist Moore hates capitalism so much he apparently has given away all his wealth and gone to live under Communism where everyone is peaceful, equal and living in harmony for the common good.

 

But I agree with the folk above in the sense that our Capitalist system has gotten very corrupted and regulated to death and the financial system is a cesspool.

You're right that the government forced the sub-prime loans, but that's not the only thing that went wrong.

 

The problem is definitely NOT that the financial system is regulated to death. In fact the exact opposite is the case. Those bodies that were tasked to regulate the banksters were so nobbled by the Bush Jr administration that they were completely ineffectual, and the rest of the regulations were removed. Try watching a doco called "Inside Job" to see what really caused the GFC.

 

The major problem now in the US (and getting that way here) is the amount of influence the Capitalists hold over ALL the politicians via campaign donations. Since the "Citizens United" case in the US, shadowy groups spring up overnight and channel tens of millions of corporate dollars into campaign funding and then disappear so that the funds are untraceable. The "Citizens United" decision was made by a supreme court that was stacked with activist Conservative judges by Bush Jr. The decision overturned over 100 years of established law and says in effect that "money is free speech" and since "corporations are people, my friend" they have the right to unlimited "free speech" in politics.

 

THAT's what's wrong with Capitalism today.